Wednesday, Feb 2, 2022 • 18min
Telling Good Stories: How to Use the Elements of Narrative to Keep Listeners Engaged
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In this podcast episode, we discuss how to foster a sense of empathy and connection through storytelling.
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Paula Moya
Matt Abrahams
Transcript
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Matt Abrahams
00:00
We all know that a good
story
can move us make us feel something, teach us something, help us be better at something. But can a story
literally move us? That is, get us to move and be healthy? Today, we'll learn the answer to this question and many other best practices for what makes a good story
.Share
00:22
I'm Matt Abrahams and I teach strategic communication at
Stanford Graduate School of Business
. Welcome to Think Fast, Talk Smart - the podcast.Share
00:34
We are so lucky today to be joined by Paula Moya. Paula is the Danily and Laura Louise Bell Professor of the Humanities, and a professor of English at Stanford. She also is a recipient of the Dean's Award for Distinguished Teaching. Paula has several books on the market, the most recent being "The Social Imperative: Race, Close Reading and Contemporary Literary Criticism. "
Share
01:01
For the past two years, she's been part of a research project that investigates and validates using narrative to encourage individuals to increase their activity levels to improve health span. Welcome, Paula. I am so eager to work with you.
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Paula Moya
01:16
Thank you, Matt. I'm so glad to be here and to have an opportunity to chat with you.
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Matt Abrahams
01:21
Great, let's get started. Before we get into some of the really cool ways you're using stories to motivate people, I'd like to start with some general questions about stories. You are a narratologist, I've never heard that term before. Can you define what that means and what do you do?
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Paula Moya
01:40
Well,
narratology
, basically, it's just the study of narrative and narrative structure and the ways that these things affect human perception. So a narratologist basically is just someone who does the studying. You know, I've always loved reading and I'm captivated by stories, and so it's been my pleasure over the last decade or so to be able to spend time thinking about what makes narratives work.Share
Matt Abrahams
02:09
Wow, a whole field I was unaware of. So, as somebody who studied narratives as deeply as you have, I'm curious. From your perspective, what makes a good narrative or
story
?Share
Paula Moya
02:21
I guess I'd have to say that a lot depends on what anyone means by good, right? So, I love many different kinds of stories and I know that they all draw on different kinds of elements to give them their value, but the basic elements of the
story
, we can start there, of a story
or a narrative or plot, so like what happens. Characters, points of view or perspective, and that relates to localization; shedding, like where it's located; theme, kind of basically what they're talking about; and of course, style.Share
02:55
So, conflict is also central to any
story
, because there always needs to be something that kind of gets the story
going, empowers the events that occur. So these elements will always be present in any particular story
, albeit in different combinations and with different emphasis.Share
03:14
So, you know, a good
story
and narrative will have all of those. But it's important to know, from my perspective, that what one person defines as good may be very different from what some other person defines as good. So what good is will be very much influenced by what someone knows, what they value, what they love and also what they recognize.Share
03:38
And this is sometimes cultural, right? Based on where someone grew up, what they are accustomed to doing in their daily lives. And it's also sometimes learned, right? Based on what we're taught in school, right? What did our teachers tell us, or even what someone we admire says it's good. So maybe a preacher or a mother or an aunt.
Share
04:00
So, for example, those of us who read a lot of stories or consume a lot of narratives. And so I count myself among one of those I'm always reading or watching some serial, or something. You know, when we do that, we can easily become bored by characters that we perceive as stock characters or plus that are predictable.
Share
04:21
You know, if you read enough narratives, you start to recognize certain particular terms, and we get bored by them, because we've seen them too many times before and they contain for us no surprises. At the same time for someone else, that same
story
can be fresh and interesting.Share
04:39
So, my answer kind of to like what's good, what makes a good narrative is that a
story
is good if someone somewhere values it as good. Now, it just might not be good for me, and I'm making a larger point about the existence of multiple conceptions of the good.Share
Matt Abrahams
04:57
Certainly. I hear you talking about several things. For example, you need to think about who your
story
is for and what's going to be interesting, relevant and exciting for them. And you need to be careful, I heard also, of falling into the trap of using common clichés or common ways of telling the story
or designing the story
.Share
05:20
I heard you talk about surprise, I heard you talk about a novelty or at least I'm applying novelty to what you said, to really make it something that stands out. Would you agree with those?
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Paula Moya
05:30
I would completely agree with that. So it was kind of a mix of making it familiar, which we like just as human beings, psychologically, we have a kind of principle of familiarity that drives us, and also making it new, making it a little surprising, giving us something that is not predictable.
Share
05:51
But it kind of goes back to the first thing that you picked up on, which is that we always have to think about who this narrative is for, because it's gonna be, you know, what's going to work is going to be different according to who it's for.
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Matt Abrahams
06:04
Absolutely. And that is a theme we have heard many times on this podcast, about really reflecting on our audience for our communication. Should we approach crafting stories meant to be read differently from those that we speak?
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Paula Moya
06:18
Absolutely, I really agree with that. Because you know it is, if you're listening to a
story
, you might need a heavier dose of repetition to help your listener keep track of what is happening. And so you see this in sort of storytelling cultures, where there's often a great deal of repetition and they come back to certain kinds of motifs, so like a certain image or a certain color.Share
06:43
And you know, if you're listening to a
story
, you can't go back and look something up, right? So you need the storyteller to help you by drawing you along with these repeated motifs, these repeated words, and also reminders of who is who and how they are related to their characters. And I think it's probably a little easier to have a more complex narrative in writing than listening.Share
Matt Abrahams
07:09
I really want to emphasize this point. In the work that I do, there's a really big challenge that people have. They write as if they're writing their content to be read and then they speak it, and it just sounds different. It doesn't connect in the same way. A lot of the ideas that you suggested, those are all things that can really help a
story
stand out when spoken, and similarly might seem redundant or repetitive or shortsighted in a written piece.Share
07:43
So the big message is we have to envision writing for speaking and writing for being red as very different things, and I think that point is super important.
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Paula Moya
07:54
It absolutely is. And I'm glad that you are articulating it so clearly, I need to learn some of that.
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Matt Abrahams
07:59
No, well, I do a lot of speaking, so I repeat myself a lot, much to my family's dismay.
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Paula Moya
08:08
But let me just say one more thing about that, is that um always when we're thinking about communicating, we need to think about the medium. Like, so how is it that we are, you know, what is the medium through which we are communicating?
Share
08:21
So, obviously a novel is a different medium than, say, you know, a
story
circle where you're sitting around talking to people. The medium really makes it so important to sort of, shift how you do something if you want to communicate well.Share
Matt Abrahams
08:35
So true. I cannot tell you the number of times I see people try to tell stories through bullet points on power point slides, and it's it's the wrong medium, It's the wrong tool to get your message across. And I really appreciate that advice.
Share
08:51
I'd like to turn to your research. Your research and writings, focus on
race
and culture. Do you have any guidance on how we can be more inclusive of diversity and the stories we choose to tell and how we actually craft those stories?Share
Paula Moya
09:06
Well, I think probably the easiest way, the most simple way to be inclusive
diversity
is also the most obvious way, that is to write or consume stories about those people, places, events and dilemmas that are, for the most part, absent or underrepresented in the mainstream of society.Share
09:27
So there are not, for example, sufficient representations of latinx people in the media, television, theater, the movies and journalism to give a true and accurate picture of the richness and the complexity of latino life. This is not to say that there is none, just to say that there is a dearth of such representation relative to the number of latinx people living in this country.
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09:53
And unfortunately, many of the representations of latinx people are quite negative and stereotypical and so not representative of the wide range of experiences of people who are associated with that ethnicity.
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Matt Abrahams
10:06
So it certainly sounds to me like if you're looking to be more inclusive in the stories you tell, you need to tell stories that include people that, by definition, I think is what we're talking about. But we also have to be sensitive to what we represent and what we tell those stories about. So it's not just including people in the stories, it's what those stories are about and the focus and what they the message they send beyond the
story
itself.Share
10:33
And that's really important for all of us to think about as we live in a more diverse culture. It's critical to hear the stories and voices of everyone. You are part of a very cool interdisciplinary team, looking at the role of narrative in motivating positive health behavior. Can you tell us briefly about the Perfecto Project?
Share
Paula Moya
10:54
So the Perfected Project is actually an extension of a larger project involving very large interdisciplinary team at
Stanford University
that has been researching the effectiveness in motivating mobility of narrative based feedback that is delivered on the ambient screen of an android smartphone.Share
11:16
So basically that just means it's a mobility app that helps take the user through a narrative, and as the user exercises or walks or does some kind of physical activity, the
story
moves along. So they help power the story
in that sense.Share
Matt Abrahams
11:34
It sounds to me like it's a fitness tracker, the data from which actually moves you through a
story
and that story
serves to help motivate even more movement. Is that right?Share
Paula Moya
11:45
That's exactly right. And so what we're trying to do is create a narrative that's interesting enough that the person wants to do their exercise so they can get the next chapter.
Share
Matt Abrahams
11:55
I think for the listeners, this notion of thinking about creating stories that you share as a leader, as a participant of teams that are culturally relevant. And the fact that you are finding that the notion that a
story
can serve as motivation for any behavior, potentially, is really a fascinating one.Share
12:17
As part of the work you just described, I read that there seems to be a link between motivation and empathy for characters and stories. Can you describe this association in any guidance that it might suggest for those of us trying to motivate others through the stories we tell?
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Paula Moya
12:36
Well, I do think empathy, where we feel for others, as well as things like recognition, where we maybe see characters that remind us of ourselves, are very important for how stories affect listeners and readers. Because one very basic psychological phenomenon is familiarity, which is simply a form of remembering and with the situation, an event, a person, a place or the like provokes a subjective feeling of recognition.
Share
13:05
So if I guess, you know, I've been at that Tamale making party, I've been at that birthday party where, you know, there is where we break the piñata. So it doesn't have to be perfect, but it brings something of ourselves to us. And I think being recognized makes us feel good, feel valued, it makes us feel a sense of belonging.
Share
Matt Abrahams
13:27
This notion of helping people feel what you're talking about is familiar to them is really interesting. It really speaks to the need to demonstrate that you understand people's experience and help them see how they can change that experience, enhance that experience, etcetera.
Share
13:51
So this notion of using empathy to demonstrate familiarity I think is a really interesting tool for those of us who craft communications to have in our toolkit. Do you have a favorite tool that you listen for or look for in what you write or you read? For example, I love alliteration. I'm curious, do you have any tools you find that you gravitate towards in narratives that you write or listen to?
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Paula Moya
14:19
You know, that's a very interesting question. I'm not sure that I think of it as programmatically as that, like "oh these are my tools", but I definitely use alliteration. I find it very effective. So a modicum of repetition, alliteration. I will often uh speak my greatest sentences is allowed to see how they sound to me.
Share
14:45
And then of course thinking about images, I'm very attempted to the use of certain words and also not reinforcing certain associations that have been negative, for instance, for people of color.
Share
Matt Abrahams
14:59
The tools you shared are really helpful for all of us to think about. Before we get to our closing, I am curious if you have any last best practices on how to craft better stories to motivate our audiences.
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Paula Moya
15:14
Clearly an author or a storyteller needs to create compelling situations and dilemmas full of suspense and surprise, because those are things that give us joy. They also need to create characters in whom we are interested, whether be because the characters we see ourselves in them, or because we care about them or feel empathy for them, or because they operate in a field of action that in some way intrigues us. Maybe even scares us.
Share
Matt Abrahams
15:43
Before we end, I'd like to ask you the same three questions I ask everybody. Sound okay?
Share
Paula Moya
15:49
Yeah, sure.
Share
Matt Abrahams
15:50
Alright. If you were to capture the best communication advice you ever received as a 5 to 7 word presentation slide title, what would it be?
Share
Paula Moya
16:02
Make them want to turn the page.
Share
Matt Abrahams
16:04
Uh, I really like that!
Share
Paula Moya
16:06
It is an eight word sentence, I think. But you know, if you're reading a novel, like, you want to know. Either because the character or the situation, whatever, you want to know what's going to happen.
Share
Matt Abrahams
16:15
Absolutely. It's building suspense and intrigue, and that's important in all communication. Let me ask you a question number two. Who is the communicator that you admire and why?
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Paula Moya
16:26
I would say that
Margaret Atwood
is an amazing communicator. She is an amazing novelist
. I eagerly seek out anything she writes. She is a beautiful user of language, she could make me envision the world that she was putting together. And she wasn't, she also was not afraid to make difficult characters who are real, in the sense that people like them exist out there in the world.Share
Matt Abrahams
16:56
Our final question. What are the first three ingredients that go into a successful communication recipe?
Share
Paula Moya
17:03
I'd say sense, like that the
story
has to make sense. Humor. And then finally suspens. And that comes from like making them wanted to turn the page.Share
Matt Abrahams
17:14
I like this notion of it, it just has to make sense, right? A lot of us don't take a simple criterion like that. We've definitely on this podcast talked about humor and the value of humor, and you've illuminated today how suspense and familiarity can be really, really helpful.
Share
17:32
Paula, thank you so much for joining us today and sharing the story of your work and how to make our stories work better. We're taking away so many important insights that can really strengthen our narratives and help us motivate people in the direction that we want. I appreciate your time and your insights. Thank you.
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Paula Moya
17:51
Well, thank you, Matt, I'm very happy to have had the chance to talk with you.
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Matt Abrahams
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