Wednesday, Aug 25, 2021 • 54min
Episode 24 - Martina Navratilova
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On the latest episode of the Rex Chapman Show with Josh Hopkins, the guys are joined by legendary tennis icon Martina Navratilova who was a fixture in the sport for 5 decades. Throughout her life, beginning in the former Soviet controlled Czechoslovakia, activism is critical to her and giving a voice to the voiceless, in search of equality for all.
You can follow Martina Navratilova on Twitter and Instagram.
6:00 - Martina's relationship with Basketball Hall of Famer Nancy Lieberman and how she took to training like a basketball player, playing pickup basketball along the way. It was that training that unlocked her potential to become the best player in the world.
9:30 - In light of mental health which has been so important to athletes today, we've come a long way from when Martina faced one of the hardest challenges of her life, leaving her home country and her parents behind.
12:30 - Martina says one of the most disappointing parts of her life is people constantly trying to undercut her, saying her dedication and hard work was just the results of steroids, or she was just some kind of robot.
14:30 - Martina describes what made Chris Evert such a great athlete, who would have excelled at any sport because of her mental fortitude.
16:45 - At the age of 12, Martina lived through the Prague Spring, when the Soviet Union felt threatened against an independant Czechoslovakia and sent soldiers in to prevent any form of democracy to develop.
21:30 - When Martina was told by her government that her tennis career was making her grow too close to a Western type of lifestyle, she knew she would have to defect in fear of never being able to leave again.
23:30 - Martina's first US tournament was where she resides today in Fort Lauderdale and the first thing she remembers was the big cars, and the coconuts growing on the trees. Everything was so just eye-opening and all she wanted to do was share what she saw with her family.
32:00 - It's been 40 years since Martina was outed. It was something she had to be quiet about as she was awaiting to get her US citizenship. In light of Billie Jean King's outing there was pressure from Tennis not to say anything in fear of losing sponsors.
41:30 - Martina thought about what life would be like with Twitter and now we have a generation that grew up not knowing what life was like without social media. Girls will continue to have more scrutiny than men, especially in a world where everyone is judged on a constant basis.
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Speakers
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Martina Navratilova
Rex Chapman
Josh Hopkins
Transcript
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Rex Chapman
00:03
Welcome to Episode 24 of the Next Champion Show with Super Cool.
Share
00:10
Super sexy. Super hot. Super dumb, but super sexy, sexy. Super cool. Super smart. Yeah, super dumb. Superhot
Josh Hopkins
josh. Super cool. Super cool, awesome Josh Hopkins
a little bit. And uh so welcome to episode 24 for the 24 for the Jamal Mashburn episode 24. Uh What's another 24? We don't have Jamal Mashburn today. We've had Jamal Mashburn.Share
Josh Hopkins
00:46
Mister Kobe Bryant...
Share
Rex Chapman
00:48
Kobe Bryant
. That's a Great 24. Well done.Share
Josh Hopkins
00:52
Probably the all time 24. Although I do say I loved it when Kobe was 8. That was to me, that was like, that was just a cool number. It was would have just in his number 8.
Share
Rex Chapman
01:05
Yeah, it's still it's still is it still
Share
Josh Hopkins
01:08
Didn't get retired as both. So anyway,
Share
Rex Chapman
01:11
Yeah, 24, Ken, Griffey jr.
Share
Josh Hopkins
01:15
Good one.
Share
Rex Chapman
01:17
A Good one. And it's just a good one.
Share
Josh Hopkins
01:20
Great one. Well, we've had 24 in some regard on the show. In Mash and
Jimmy Jackson
.Share
Rex Chapman
01:27
Oh, that's right, That is right.
Share
Josh Hopkins
01:28
I can't forget the 24's we've had
Share
Rex Chapman
01:31
You know who we have today, Josh and and I'm just gonna tease it for a second before we get into some other stuff. We've got
Martina Navratilova
today.Share
Josh Hopkins
01:41
That, that, you know kidding aside here, that blows me away. That's iconic. That's our childhood. That's, you know, Okay, 10 Sundays, right? I mean that was, it was,
Share
01:54
I'm nervous. I am really,
Share
Rex Chapman
01:57
She's an icon. Uh she's an icon. She's on my mount Rushmore. I mean growing up in the eighties. I just can't even, yeah, I'm excited and nervous and
Share
Josh Hopkins
02:07
Tennis is on then you had to watch it. You wanted to watch it, but there were 800 channels and that came on and it was sport and not everything had, you know, sports was on, it was, you know, maybe local news and stuff and that was on and it was amazing.
Share
Rex Chapman
02:23
Her whole life is amazing. Right? She was, I mean she was a super superstar
Serena
before Serena
. Like she was just different.Share
Josh Hopkins
02:34
In the heyday of that score to, with the rivalries, you know, that, that seemed like the, the golden age of tennis.
Share
Rex Chapman
02:40
Yeah, amazing. Anyway, Well, I'm excited and nervous. Uh, but just really honored that she was coming on are simply show. Hey Josh, I haven't read anything this week at all. I, and I meant to this week, you know, just because I had some time, but I didn't, I didn't read anything. Did you read anything this week?
Share
Josh Hopkins
03:05
Actually had quite a bit of time, but I had neglected to watch anything. I watch a lot of tv and stuff. So that's been book club. Okay. What else is going on buddy? Anything? How's how's
Kentucky
house?Share
Rex Chapman
03:16
Lexington,
Kentucky
is good. A little overcast yesterday. Hot as Hades today. I think that's what my mom used to say. It is hot as Hades out there.Share
Josh Hopkins
03:26
Not as hot as here, not as hot in Austin. It's walking on the sun here. It's walking on the sun. Uh that's been the weather report. Okay we got
Share
Rex Chapman
03:40
You know, I'm excited to talk to Martin. We should just get right into it. She's uh she's you know there's a lot of stuff I want to ask her about. Hopefully, she'll be up for being an open book like I know she has been most of her life. I want to talk to her about some mental health stuff. Uh I'm excited.
Share
Josh Hopkins
04:01
Me too man, let's do it.
Share
Rex Chapman
04:04
Thank you for doing this, Martina.
Share
Martina Navratilova
04:07
Your episode 24 only now you're asking me, to be honest. It's alright, I can handle it.
Share
Josh Hopkins
04:18
So lucky that you said yes. I mean such an icon. I'm we talked to a lot of people and big basketball players or basketball guys and I'm I'm really kind of nervous and I'm just so excited they're here and freaked out that I'm talking to you so thank you so much for joining us.
Share
Martina Navratilova
04:36
Thank you don't want too much well and
Share
Rex Chapman
04:39
I'm going to echo the same. And we were just talking before you came on you know you were just such a huge influence. We we both grew up in
Kentucky
And you know when you were just on fire in the late 70s and 80s we were you know teenagers watching every your every move and you I told you the other day when I d m g you know you're on My Mount Rushmore.Share
05:09
So and my mom and dad played Tennis religiously growing up and I would go to the their Tennis matches and I started to learn how to play Tennis and I was one of the first guys I would play with, my group of guys, but they would all you know, pretend to be Jimmy Dan and and and uh Agassi and everybody else. I could pretend to be Martina and I loved I loved playing, I loved watching you play.
Share
05:40
And and so thank you for being here. One of the things that I was wondering In in reading up more on Yu is about your relationship with
Nancy Lieberman
. She's a you know basketball icon. And when I was coming up in the 80s, you know, she was she actually tried out for the pacers, the Indiana Pacers
. And how did YouTube Come across one another?Share
Martina Navratilova
06:08
Well her league folded, right. And she was just just wanted to play. I mean to think that the greatest basketball player in the world, but she's done after college, there's no place for her to go unless she went to europe and played some team team team basketball, their leagues. But she came to a tournament with a with a mutual friend Tennis player.
Share
06:28
She came to a tournament in Amelia Island back in 1981 and of course we recognized each other started talking and uh and then I started doing more than that and uh, you know, we're in a relationship for three years, but it was Nancy that pushed me into training and really getting in much better shape. I had no idea what basketball training was like, but she introduced me to it pretty quickly.
Share
06:49
I started doing suicide drills and learned how to do it. I did not play basketball at all. So, you know, I was a total blank slate and eager student, I loved it. So we played a lot of two on two full court, three on three, full court, one on one full court full court. We didn't play half court because it was about training, right?
Share
Rex Chapman
07:10
So we're a little man, big man, I played a lot of that as well too, and one you learned how to play you because you didn't grow up dribbling a basketball path, You learned the rules in a short amount of time like that, and we're able to play with.
Share
Martina Navratilova
07:25
I mean, I watched basketball, I just didn't play, there was, you know, there was no place to play. But yeah, we did a lot of sliding drills, footwork is very similar, especially now even more so because in the old days it was cross step in Tennis right now, it's sidestep open stance.
Share
07:40
So the defensive drill, you know, we did terminating a squad going sideways, your point point, you you slide, slide, always open body and so it was much more relevant to Tennis than I knew then.
Share
07:53
But it just really got me strong and fit and uh and it was fun. I hate running long distance. I did that to get a base, but I love fast training, whether it was running sprints on the track or playing basketball or later I played hockey, Tennis, I love fast sports. So you know, I'll play basketball until I literally can't move anymore.
Share
08:13
But he told me to go for a half an hour around and I'm like oh my goodness, you know, shoot me. I hate that slow stuff. My sister loves it. Go figure but me. No. So uh so I loved I loved that training and Nancy was the one that really turned the light on for me and made me realize how much more I could be doing. And that's when it all started, I started training in the summer of 81.
Share
08:36
And uh and then Renee Richards started being my coach after the U. S. Open in 81. And and and that's when I started winning everything because I had I had the right team around me before that I was doing it on my own for six years. I didn't have a coach.
Share
Rex Chapman
08:49
You know, it is amazing how how frustrating though, you know, because you know, we heard all the, you know, rumors and people thinking that you were doing things that you know that weren't natural and you were just working your ass off. Yeah, of course.
Share
09:10
And you know, and it wasn't even really things that the media could, right at that point, there was just whispers from people and rumors and how frustrating and hard was that and then this time, you know, maybe I, I didn't want to ask this quite yet, but mental health with what's going on right now,
Naomi Osaka
simone biles being a young person and having to be in the public eye like that, going through what everything that you had gone through personally.Share
09:42
How difficult was that?
Share
Martina Navratilova
09:43
So this could be a really long answer. So I'm trying to do right now, everybody is under a much bigger microscope, right? Uh in the social media, you can't sneeze without somebody getting it on their camera and posting it. So it's really, really the stresses, I don't know if it's magnified, but it's just different and it's, I think it's different.
Share
10:04
It's worse because it's always present. Even when you try to get off social media, it takes effort to get off the right to not read it. It's, it sucks the energy out of you, even if you're strong and then if you have any kind of foibles, you know, it really, it really attacks you in so many ways.
Share
10:21
So it's, it's more difficult in that way, but for me leaving my family when I was 18 and it was a one way ticket, right? Leaving
Czechoslovakia
now the Czech Republic, it was a one way ticket. I didn't know if I would ever see my family again. So it was a big commitment. So after that everything was easy. It would be difficult.Share
10:41
What could be tougher than that. So whether it was coming out or playing matches or you know, traveling on my own and learning how to drive on the left side of the road in in UK, you know, with a stick shift on the left side alone, arriving at the tournament in east born at midnight. You know, you did what you had to do because I've already done the hardest thing that I've ever had to do.
Share
11:01
So it was, but but what what was hard when I started winning and doing everything as you said, the whispers, you know, of course she must be doing steroids. It was dehumanizing. Either I'm doing drugs or I'm actually a man or I have an unnatural advantage because I'm a lesbian as if it was something my ability.
Share
11:23
And and then I remember there was a cartoon when I really wasn't losing hardly at all. There was one stretch where I lost six matches in three years.
Share
Rex Chapman
11:34
What a slump.
Share
Martina Navratilova
11:36
So, there was, you know, there was a cartoon saying, uh they were accusing me of being a robot because I was winning. You know, so so automatically and then the cartoon was, I am not me saying I'm not a robot. Robot, robot, robot, you know dehumanizing human and that's what really pisses me off because I don't think they would do it too guys. I don't think they would do it just straight women. I don't think they would do it to people from
France
or England. You know it was a Communist country, a Slavic country. All of that combined it's like and then I had muscles. I always had muscles. You know I still I was benching the other day I started doing some training because I want to get in better shape for skiing So I can ski all day and ski hard. So I started training and uh and I started bench pressing again and you know I've been 85 pounds 8 times, you know three sets. I'm 64 years old, I shouldn't be able to do that. You know I still have the guns and and in third grade my our teacher in third grade was explaining how the muscles work and how the bicep works. And she had me go to the class to front of class and flex flex my biceps because I had bigger biceps than the boys. It's great. So yeah I don't think I was doing steroids. It's you know it'sShare
Rex Chapman
12:55
Yeah and where does that come from? Is that your mom and your mom and dad parents,
Share
Martina Navratilova
12:60
Both my parents were amazing bodies and great athletes.
Share
13:03
So I I got the D. N. A. And then I worked at it, you know I worked my ass off. I was benching 140 pounds you know when I was playing and squatting over 300 pounds You know, sets of eight or 10. So and I never took anything, never touched anything and I remember being in a gym that was pretty cut and and this young 15 year old boy says what do you think about blah blah blah? And he said some word, I don't know what it was and I'm like what he says, what do you think about blah? I'm like is that a steroid? He says yes I'm like don't even think about taking any of that stuff and I never took it, he didn't know who I was, he just thought it was a bodybuilder and so I'm like I was mortified that he wanted to do that and then of course he assumed that I was doing because I'm a woman and I was, you know, I had muscles bigger than most most most women anyway anyway when when I know like my body it's so amazing, it's so amazing.
Share
Rex Chapman
13:56
And when I think back you know growing up in
Kentucky
there was I now I realized there was definitely you and and Chris Evert
had and she was obviously amazing and and you had this amazing rivalry but there was definitely a Chris Evert
bias when I think back And I and you go both were so different what you were you were you were more of a physical player and powerful. What made her uh so difficult for you?Share
Martina Navratilova
14:32
Well, she was, she was, she was first of all, much better athlete than she even gave herself credit for. Uh she, you know, she would have excelled in other sports, but between the ears, she was so strong. I learned watching her how she carried herself on the court and off the court, how she was just so controlled and so focused.
Share
14:52
You would never know whether she was winning or losing by looking at her, She had the same expression and uh I with me, you always knew how I was feeling. I always tried every point, but I, you know, I would be really get down on myself and she was so so controlled and uh she, she knew what the other player was thinking and feeling.
Share
15:12
I was clueless. Again, I didn't have a coach for six years, but even after I had a coach, I didn't really think about the emotional or mental part of it all because again, coming from a Communist country, you just get on with it. You know, you deal with it.
Share
15:24
You don't have the option of, you know, saying, oh well this is really hard, emotionally. It's like, you know, kids and, you know, spend a lot of time in Kenya kids in Kenya, don't have ptsD PTSD, they don't have A. D. A. D. D. Or in any, they don't have time for that. 50 carrying water three miles. Uh and and walking to school five miles every day, they don't have time to Have those kinds of emotions.
Share
15:48
And again, growing up where I grew up, I was never hungry or cold, but it was not easy. We didn't have, you know, we don't have hot running water until I was like 12 years old. So we had running water but it was cold. So you you just get on with it. And and so I never really paid enough attention to the mental aspect of the game until much later in my career.
Share
Josh Hopkins
16:11
Now you mentioned growing up in in
Czechoslovakia
and I have an interest in that, in that I was fortunate enough a couple of years ago to work in Prague
for a year and I realized that I didn't know much about the history.Share
16:26
As many Americans aren't educated about stuff like that were very self centric in that way, as you know, but I just find it so interesting that you were, you were there For the Prague Spring in 1968, 12 or 13 You said.
Share
16:46
And and and lived through that. And for a lot of people that don't know, you know,
Czechoslovakia
was occupied for years, especially after World War II. The Soviets came in really speak down a lot of the country. Its soul in a lot of ways. In 1968. Czechoslovakia
started to get a little mojo back, that was led by intellects and artists and stuff. They started to feel the culture again and it was a little freer and started to feel good about it. I thought the Soviets would be okay, we've been here for a long time and the Soviets weren't like that. They came in with tanks uh to let them know who was in charge and really crushed the spirit of the country that at that point and you were there for that time. And what do you remember about that? And then what do you say just your perspective now on people that today, especially in politics, throw around the words like socialism and communism and that's what really to scare people with it. What do you say about real communism and socialism, prepared to what you see now?Share
Martina Navratilova
17:53
Right, well, yeah, Bernie, Bernie and Sanders maybe calling himself socialist, but I think he's socialist on the social issues, in that he wants people to have equal access and opportunity, but he's certainly not communist or socialist in in the in the in the way that the communism was, which is telling you what to do, how to do it and and what you are allowed to say or do etcetera, or else there are repercussions. So in 68, it started kind of started 67 the
Prague
spring, but it really came to fruition in the, in the spring of 68 that's when, uh, that's when the Soviet union realized that, oh, we need to quell this. And, we had a joke back in Czechoslovakia
back then that we have the biggest car in the world and that we have the car in Czechoslovakia
, but the steering wheels in Moscow. Yeah, they decided what, what was going on, right, what would and, and then there's another joke, I have to say no propaganda, which is kind of relevant to what's going on today.Share
18:54
There was a race between
Nixon
and Brezhnev
, you are the only two guys running and Nixon
wins. And Brezhnev
finished second and the, and the Soviet newspaper says, well our esteemed president finished with a very good second place while the American president finished one before last.Share
Rex Chapman
19:11
There you are.
Share
Martina Navratilova
19:20
Anyway, so instead I was actually playing a tournament in Pilsen, a junior tournament in Pilsen. My dad just took me there on, on, on our motorcycle, on like a Thursday The German starts Friday, it's Friday Saturday Sunday Pilsen was about 60 miles, you know, like a two hour ride on the, on the motorcycle and uh, and Friday morning, uh, my friends, I stayed with with my best friends who were playing doubles together. Uh, and, and uh, the father calls at 8:00 AM and says "Don't go outside, there is Russian tanks on the streets." That's when the Russians came in 21st of overnight, 20 August, 21 August actually, the anniversary is in a couple of days. So of course, we went onto the street to check it out and you know, started throwing rocks at the tanks. But then we thought maybe we shouldn't do that because those guys have guns and we didn't, we had rocks, uh, 600 soldiers, 600,000 soldiers. The Russians sent Soviets, I should say for supposedly 25,000 dissidents in in the whole country.
Share
20:21
So yeah, it was bullshit. They just quelled called any unrest or any ideas that we had of being free and and democratic country. My cousin actually at the time was in the Czech Army because you had to do two years in the army and they were told to stand down, they were not allowed to fight that that order came from from the top. And that was that. So that was the end of the
Prague
spring. And and we knew our life would never be the same or would would get worse, whatever freedoms we we might have had were not gone. So then when I defected in 75, because the federation was basically telling me when I could or could not leave to get out of the country to get to go anywhere, you have to get visa and to go to a capitalist country to go northwest, you had to get permission from the government first before you could go to the embassy to get the visa. So if you don't get the permission from the Czech government to travel to Italy
or France
or wherever in Western europe, you don't go anywhere, you have your passport, but you know the visa, you don't go.Share
21:21
So you you're at the mercy of the government, whether you get you leave, you can leave the country or not. And and so when they said, oh you're not gonna we're not gonna let you play the
US Open
because you were too friendly with the Americans and blah blah blah. That's when I realized if they ever let me out again, I'm gonna have to not go back because I would I would not be able to control my destiny. So that's that, that happened because of 68, you know, the freedoms were squashed that much more before that more people could travel out West, but after 68 it was really a disastrous. A lot of people immigrated as soon as they could or escaped over the border with with Austria or West Germany. And anyway, so life, life was never the same.Share
Josh Hopkins
22:04
Well, not too fanboy out too much, but I had this a long time before I knew you were gonna be on here and there was a quote in there that I thought was great, you said this is sort of paraphrasing you said "When you're 12 or 13 and your country's verve, and and gets knocked down like that. What do you do when you're have aspirations and goals and the skill, there's only one thing to do and it's get out." And you mentioned in the book, I thought that was great. I mentioned in the book that, I mean you mentioned the book that you were really enamored with Western culture, American culture growing up, you know, every little bit morsel of a record, whatever you took in. But when you actually got to
America
for the first time, he got off the plane, what were you surprised with? Because you know, growing up with so much propaganda against American culture and whatnot. What surprised you or what delighted you?Share
Martina Navratilova
22:58
Well, I didn't believe the propaganda. So we knew life was much better out West. I've actually been to West Germany in, in 69 and 70s. So I knew what life was like in the West. But then when I first came to
America
, it's actually funny because my first tournament in America
was in Fort Lauderdale
, which is where I am right now live it out and the airport is about 10 miles away and the biggest shock. I've already seen the big cars because when I was in Germany, there were American bases there. So there were American cars, but the size of the cars, you know, Buicks and Cadillacs and Fords
, what have you was just astonishing next to the check cars and that is all the German cars, they're like little, you know little Fiat 500 size, right?Share
23:44
So it was just the size of the cars here. We even have seen it in Germany, it was amazing. There were coconuts on the trees that you could actually pick and which I did. I took a coconut and took about three hours to get into it was you know, a little hammer driver. But I got into my coconut and uh and then when you got a ham sandwich at the grocery store at the coffee shop, it was like, you know two pieces of bread and this much ham, right, proper jewish sandwich in Czech Republic, it was a thick piece of bread and one slice of ham. So you know, it was like luxury beyond belief here like sure, and I just wanted to share that hand with my family. I remember when I was eating that sandwich, I'm like this is just amazing and I was just, I was 16 years old, I was just sad that my family couldn't be with me, I was in
America
for 2 months and it was like, wow, everything is just, you know, and there's oranges on the trees, I mean I'm in Fort Lauderdale
, right, I'm in Florida. It was, it was like being in a yeah,Share
Rex Chapman
24:48
How many people knew how many people knew you were, you were defecting that you were gonna uh, leave And when the time?
Share
Martina Navratilova
24:59
Very few. My only your parents, my my my parents, well my dad knew that I was probably going to do it and he said, if you do it, don't come back, no matter what we tell you. My mom didn't know. So I don't I can't talk about it because I'll start crying. So it was really hard. But the people that didn't know was my my agent who arranged my actual defection and I had to go to the immigration and naturalization service in Manhattan. Uh, so he knew we were going to do it after I am out of the U. S. Open. I lost to Chris Chris in the semifinals and that that night or the next day. I can't remember. I think I lost her on a Thursday and Friday we left. I'm sorry my dog is so, yeah, okay, let her out.
Share
Josh Hopkins
25:41
It's a theme of this podcast. So don't worry, we got dogs on every, every time
Share
Martina Navratilova
25:47
I'm in the office because we also have birds and if you hear some weird screams, it's the birds, it's not people. Uh, so
Chris Evert
knew Billie jean king, my agent and his daughter who was also on the tour. Sherry Barman. My agent was Fred Barman who just passed away like last year was, he was 100 years old. It was a good effort, Right?Share
26:14
So uh yeah, that, that was, so it was like four or five people knew that was it.
Share
Josh Hopkins
26:19
So you didn't have like our, our view of it and you think you're here like you didn't have handlers there that we're watching that sort of. Yeah, I mean that's what we think.
Share
Martina Navratilova
26:29
I had really great handler: me. I know those, we did not have teams, we did not have people around us. Even people that had coaches, they only had coaches at home nobody traveled with their player. I think Björn Borg was and and Jimmy Connors with his mother were the only people that really travel with their coaches and not to all tournaments.
Share
Josh Hopkins
26:50
So I don't even mean coaches. I mean like we think there's like people like the government with you watching you. That didn't happen.
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Martina Navratilova
26:58
Oh those handlers I had, yeah, Dera Sukova, who was Helena Sukova mother who had played against was open. She was, she was the coach and handler of of our team. And uh, so there was like two other players I think with with us and that women players and like three male players Janko displayed at that time. And uh, my another good friend. So anyway, so when I went to the office of of the immigration and naturalization service, obviously I didn't tell my, I didn't tell her, but we had freedom, we didn't have to be with the coaches all the time or the handlers so we could go and go to the movies on our own. But of course I didn't tell her. And and and so when I went to the office we went after hours they said come after six o'clock so nobody knows that you're here so we can keep it quiet, don't tell anybody. Okay. And uh filled out all the paperwork. I was there at about 10:30 at night, Make sure that they knew, you know, they kept asking, are you in the Communist Party as your father Communist? So I had to assure them that I was not a Communist. I was not a spy. I just wanted to play Tennis. Uh and I finally left there at 10.30. The guy said...
Share
Rex Chapman
28:11
Would have been a great spy. You'd have been a great spy.
Share
Martina Navratilova
28:15
This model was just fine. But that's another struggle. So there were only like two or three people that I met when I was there that you know because there was empty office this Friday night and in the morning so I go back to my hotel, the Roosevelt hotel. And at 8 o'clock in the morning my phone rings and it's very realistic about the handler coach says why did you do it? I'm like did what I was sound asleep. She says why did you do it? I'm like, oh my God she knows I'm like how do you know? She says it's in the
Washington
post.Share
28:43
It was in the newspaper that morning, like literally six hours later it's in the newspaper. Yeah, so yeah, anyway, so then I broke loose and I did a press conference why I defected. And uh and then and then I had people helping me to make sure that I would stay safe, that the Czechs wouldn't try to take me back.
Share
29:03
I wasn't worried about that, I didn't think, I don't think that would, but the possibility was there if I was from Russia, I would have worried about that. But Czechs were not quite that severe.
Share
29:13
And in fact there was a guy that followed me around for for a couple more weeks because my visa was still until like october so technically I could have gone back and and Vera Sokova said please come back, you know, nothing will happen to you if you come back before your visa expires. And I'm like no it's not gonna happen. So that was that
Share
Josh Hopkins
29:32
Were you worried about repercussions to your to your family?
Share
Martina Navratilova
29:35
Yes, yes I was and and it did happen but it wasn't horrible but it was still difficult. My parents both lost their jobs but they got like smaller jobs but they still had a job and then after like a couple of years my dad was got back to his old job. They were both they had already been had repercussions against them back in the 40s because initially they belonged to the Communist Party in 1945, but once they realized what the Communists were actually doing, they left. And and then my mom got thrown out of school because of her political views, because she was not on board with the Communists. Same with my dad. Uh he was not allowed to go to the school that he wanted to go to because of his politics. So they've already had that stuff, you know, they've already gone through that in their twenties. And then my sister was not allowed to go to the school that she wanted to go to high school or college, rather, she wanted to go to an art art school. But after I defected, she was a personal non grata. So she had a hard time just getting into college period. I ended up studying dentistry with the help of a friend getting into school. And my parents, so my parents lost their big job, but they still got paid the same and there was just a slightly smaller, you know, they were not going to be sent to Siberia that I knew had had had I thought that would have been, again, I had come from the Soviet union, I don't think I would have affected because it would've been too risky for the rest of my family.
Share
Josh Hopkins
30:54
Well, so that you didn't just come from great, great physical genes, great mental genes, people that were stood up for what they believed in despite the consequences. That's that's amazing.
Share
Rex Chapman
31:05
Martina, I can't believe it's it's 40 years ago that you were outed. And, you know, as you were just talking about, you know, being a teenager and going through what all you've gone through, you get here to
America
and, you know, I can't imagine, I'm sure you just wanted to be yourself, but you're also going through an immigration process, and I'm sure a lot of that was taken, I'm sure some of it was taken into consideration, how difficult was that, that part of it for you? Uh, and dealing with, you know, again, the whispers and the the, you know, the, the pundits.Share
Martina Navratilova
31:51
Sure. So, I really I had my first experience with a woman I was 18, I guess, almost 19, 18 and half. And that's when I'm like, oh, that's what that's what those crushes were. You know, I didn't really I didn't really put two and two together, but I'm like, okay, my life is going to be more complicated, but it is what it is. And that's basically all the thought I gave it to. And then there were reporters that were asking me about the lesbians on the tour, They would never ask a guy, are they gay guys? Never ask a guy are you gay? No, but they were free enough to ask a woman anyhow. Again, more sexism, but, you know what else is new.
Share
32:27
So I couldn't talk about it because number one my parents didn't know, so I wasn't gonna come out and don't tell my family first and my parents didn't ask, so I said don't ask, don't tell if they don't ask, I'm not gonna tell them if they ask, I'll tell him. So I did uh in 1980 when they came to live here for a while and and I couldn't talk about it publicly because it was it could be a disqualifier to become a citizen, right? So it will take this law. Uh yeah, so quiet about it until I got my citizenship and uh and then once I get my citizenship then I can talk about it. So one of those reporters would ask me, I'm like I can't talk about it Steve because I need to get my citizenship first. And so I get my citizenship. And like two weeks later, not even he tracks me down in Monte Carlo for and I was playing an exhibition there and he says, how about it? Well meantime
Billie Jean King
was outed by her ex girlfriend.Share
33:21
This is the like maybe four months earlier and I was told by our wt a people the women's status tour that you know because I told him as soon as I get my sister, I was going to come out and they said and they said, okay and then after the village jeans scandal where she, you know, she lost all her endorsements, She had been in a relationship with this woman, but not not anymore, but she was still married but not whatever. Uh and then she had to like prove that she was straight, but she still lost all his endorsements. So she was on the cover of people magazine saying oh no, I'm still with my husband because she was not ready to come out. And and I was told by the
WTA
. To not say anything, not come out, don't come out now because our sponsors said if there is one more scandal, we're gonna pull the sponsorship off the tour.Share
34:11
Right, so
Share
Rex Chapman
34:12
A scandal a scandal...
Share
Martina Navratilova
34:14
Was a huge scandal back then was 40 years ago. So this is you know, so uh corporate
America
certainly wasn't supportive. I mean even in 90s Subaru was like the first big company that came out and publicly supported the gay and lesbian community. Everybody else was in the closet, so to speak about their support, they were doing like Surreptitiously not openly. Subaru
was the first one that really did it openly as far as I know, but this is in the nineties. So this is 81. So again, the steven. Goldstein calls me from The Daily News is are you ready to talk about it? I'm like Steve, I can't talk about it because of the sponsorship, we would lose sponsors, blah blah blah, he says okay. I said you're not gonna talk about it, are you? He says not if you don't want me to Well of course I don't want you to. Two days later Daily News comes out Martinez a bisexual but she can't talk about it because they would lose sponsors. It's like... which part of don't talk about it did you not understand? Long story short, I was outed this way even though I was so ready to come out for years, but held it until I got my citizenship And then this this whole thing happened then village in came out finally like 13, 14 years later she was still trying, to you know. Play it cool and and not not, not, not be ostracized as the lesbians. So anyway, I didn't care and you know, I didn't care because I knew I could stop play Tennis.Share
35:37
I had, I had been on a team sport, it would have been a different story then you have, you know, it's like being in the army, you get thrown out, you're on a team, the coach may not put you in, but I was not on the team. I was in an individual sport that is not judgmental meatballs either in or out. It doesn't matter what you wear, how you look if you look pretty while you're hitting that forehand, as long as the ball goes in. So I was safe in that way. You know, my parents were not going to throw me out already left my home already done the hardest thing. Yeah, exactly. I was not gonna lose my job because I could still play Tennis and the endorsements whatever if, if they come, it's a plus, if they don't, if I lose endorsements because of that, I can still play. So uh, you know, I was, I was kind of pressure free that way, but that's how it all happened. That's how it all came down. And to this day, Steve the reporter says, oh, you said it's okay to say that. No, I didn't because I was worried about the tour, I didn't care about me because you know, I was okay, I was going to be okay no matter what and I was okay.
Share
Josh Hopkins
36:36
That's amazing the strength it takes and I don't, it just opens it. I don't mean to jump to this, but here you are, what you've gone through that describing that and how far ahead of the curve you were, how you wanted to come out then how you know, the bravery it took and here you are, human rights, gay rights, political rights, your entire life.
Share
37:00
And then you've been called transphobic and said some people, you know said you maybe even try to inspire a violence against trans people because you said that there needs to be more dialogue about trends, people in the sports community in in women's sports and sports as a whole. And just because you say there's more debate to be had in this subject.
Share
37:29
You were attacked mercilessly, how are we supposed to learn and grow without debate? Especially if someone like you who's been through what you've been can't just mention that there should be more debate and you step into a hornet's nest. What are we supposed to do now?
Share
Martina Navratilova
37:45
Right? Yeah, it's, that's exactly right. I mean, what's the, what's the key to any good relationship, communication? You need to have that communication, which means debate, which means speaking to each other, not at each other and not just a one way conversation. So yeah, it's been, it's been crazy that, you know, I've been called all kinds of names, but you know, I, I have my own compass, I kind of tried to do the right thing always. And you know, I've been, I've been kind of ahead of the curb on, on many, many uh, waste on social issues. Even training wise, I was kind of ahead of the curve. I was kind of a pioneer in more ways than then. I then I knew about way back, I was doing cross training when I was a little kid because I was swimming in the river and skating on it in the winter and, and played soccer and, and uh, I rode my bicycle and climbed up trees and you know, I was doing all this stuff long before I knew this was good for me. I just like doing it. So I was kind of ahead of the curve in many, many ways?
Share
38:48
And and certainly you know, Renee Richards with my coach, she's trans, transsexual transgender now they call It's it's different, but she had the sexual reassignment surgery back in the 70's uh suit to play on the women's tour. I was her biggest proponent and supporter, played doubles together.
Share
39:07
Uh and uh and then she became a coach and with to this day were friends and now she says trans trans women should not be allowed to play elite sports. We have an advantage. I shouldn't have been allowed to play. There's an advantage. There is no and that that you can't mitigate So and then so she's so there's calling her irrelevant now.
Share
39:26
They can't call her transphobic, but she is a transgender, but they're calling her irrelevant because she's old, she doesn't know what she's talking about. It's like really she she's lived it, she's lived this life for 50 years, but she doesn't know what she's talking about. Okay, got it.
Share
39:40
That's amazing.
Share
Josh Hopkins
39:41
I didn't know that that was her stance now because I know then she took it all the way to the Supreme Court.
Share
Martina Navratilova
39:46
Yeah, she did. But again, she but she realizes now she was in her 40s when she was able to play As a man. She was an average player? Probably not even Top 100 in the world.
Share
Rex Chapman
39:56
How did you play against? How did you play against her?
Share
Martina Navratilova
39:59
I played against us, I was number one or number two in the world, I barely beat her, I did not lose to her, but I barely like 7663. That was worth it. Yeah, It was close matches.
Share
40:09
And only because she was slow, you know, she's tall and she's slow and she's in her forties, she didn't train for like 10 years, she didn't play Tennis, she didn't train, she didn't do anything. If she had trained and she was 30 or 10 years younger, she would have she would have beat us she would have beat us because she was, you know, tall, strong and still male biology. Leftovers from when she went through puberty way back.
Share
40:32
And so those advantages you can't really mitigate. So it's difficult. We're trying to find a way for trans women to be able to compete against against women athletes on at the elite level. But it's it's it's difficult. It's really tricky. So we'll see how we come out on that front. But for anybody to be calling me public anything.
Share
40:50
You know, the only phobia phobia heavies against people that don't get vaccinated seriously.
Share
Rex Chapman
40:55
Well, we we connected, we connected obviously through social media and Twitter and I love what you do.
Share
41:02
And I also uh you know, read that you had said once, you know, if they would have had Twitter when I was playing, I would have been giving them hell, right, I'm in thinking back at 20 years old though, if we had had Twitter, could you have been giving them hell yeah, right, you go, right, there's always, there are always those things and I think, I think about, you know,
Naomi Osaka
right now and going through a difficult time and I remember being interviewed as a young person growing up in Kentucky
, just because I could play basketball at 15, 16 years old and you know, just being swarmed by media asking me things and I just really want to say, you know, hey, I'm sad today, I don't know why you're asking me this, but that wasn't the manly thing to do.Share
41:57
So I stood there and pretended given that everything is so present, like you said today, can you imagine uh you know, being a 16 18 year old phenom, like you are, all of these kids have social media now, they have teams of people that kind of their brands, You were a brand before we we said that, you know, can you imagine what it would be like today?
Share
Martina Navratilova
42:25
I'd rather not.
Share
42:26
I, I mean, you know, you see the kids, they're always have their face in the, in in their in their phone or their ipad, I do that now, you know, I'm on my ipad and at the same time, while the tv's on without the sound right, I mean, it's like, but I can multitask pretty well, but it's still too much and and really the now this generation of players and athletes is the first one that never knew life without those phones, without social media, without the internet.
Share
42:50
And it's a different mindset, no doubt. And again, the pressures are the magnifying glass, particularly for women. They really can't misstep if they do, they get punished as, you know, rex much more than than men, whether it's girls in school, colored girls more so than white girls, but girls more than boys, women, more than men.
Share
43:08
They get higher sentences for the same crimes. They get they get fired for the same for the same thing that the guys just get a slap on the wrist and women really can't do those missteps.
Share
43:19
So you feel that much more stressed, but we've heard the word depression or mental health from, from male athletes as well, not just the women, but I think women are under a bigger microscope for, you know, the sexual, the I mean, were sex objects more so than men, Right? You judge much more how you look, how you dress. How is your hair?
Share
43:41
You know, I mean, I see women now players and they have lipstick on when I'm playing them at really, I mean something mascara back in the day, but really I'm always marveling that they don't smear it, but, you know, they're putting on makeup when they're playing Tennis matches, I'm, you know, makeup technology has come a long way. Women are. I think women and girls are under much more stress than than boys.
Share
44:11
And and the the and the the image that is out there is not achievable. You have the most beautiful women models, right? Have the best makeup, have the best hair, lighting photographers and then they still fix the photos, those photos, it's impossible.
Share
44:31
And so you know, that's why you see all these mental issues and and kids committing suicide because they can't get to that or anorexia. Boys now have bulimia. I mean, it's just enough already. Just let them be kids and let them let them let them be women, let them be girls and don't judge every stupid word that comes out of their mouth because you know, I said some really stupid stuff.
Share
44:54
I made some horrible jokes, but I didn't know any better. You know, I mean, I worked for coats, I had it for a coach once I realized what what, what happened to those animals, then I gave them all away, but I was stupid enough to wear them. I was stupid enough to make horrible jokes.
Share
45:10
Now I would be more dignified what came out of my mouth, but you know, I learned revolution, right? You evolve, you you try to do better and we do, we do do better. We try, we know, we know what we don't know, wanting to admit it anyway.
Share
Rex Chapman
45:27
Oh my goodness Martinez? I I can't thank you enough for doing this real quick.
Share
45:31
What's your favorite what's your favorite movie by the way?
Share
Martina Navratilova
45:34
I have a really I have a good jump shot as a basketball player. I gotta give you so Nancy taught me how to you know scoop the person as you're going for a layup.
Share
Rex Chapman
45:42
That's right.
Share
Martina Navratilova
45:43
The ball with the other hand as you're doing the layout. Perfect. So they slap your hand but you still make the layup and put the elbow in when you when you're Yeah, she taught me all the dirty tricks as well but I'm a basketball player because I should let me but I do better lay upright, it's like a toss on the surf and I dribble right, right and I go better to my right than my left. But I can do left-handed layups as well. But I'm better with my right hand. So I'm kind of a mixed mishmash.
Share
Rex Chapman
46:13
We were just talking about that, we were talking about your backhand and we couldn't remember uh you did two-handed backhand but I couldn't do it that way.
Share
Martina Navratilova
46:24
But then I only did one hander then then my coach when I had a coach at nine, he taught me one-handed backhand. So I started out as a two-hander but I could do a two-hander but I didn't use it when I played.
Share
Rex Chapman
46:33
No you played but you were one of the few women that you used the one hander at the time, weren't you?
Share
Martina Navratilova
46:40
No no no No back then it was mostly one handers first.
Share
Rex Chapman
46:45
Okay. Okay. I got it.
Share
Martina Navratilova
46:47
I got it backhanders and very few one-handers on the men's side is making more of a comeback but it's uh it's easier to hit it with two hands. But then you're limited in some ways so there's pluses and minuses. But anyway. Yeah I had I started as a two-handed because that's how that's the only way I could hold my grandmother's racket.
Share
Rex Chapman
47:03
I was five years old and I couldn't find one hand.
Share
Martina Navratilova
47:05
I could have two hands. It was an old wooden wooden racket wouldn't handle favorite basketball player. So I would have been. Yeah I'm decent. I like to like you know I play aggressive, I played I played with Nancy and you know she told me I could have played college ball but
Share
Rex Chapman
47:22
She told you couldn't or you could.
Share
Martina Navratilova
47:24
I could I could well of course I couldn't I couldn't only imagine you would but I couldn't dunk I came about this close to touching the rim which is not bad for a white so did I.
Share
Josh Hopkins
47:35
So did I and he's 6.4 (195 cm). I can't touch the red part on a red white and blue net. I can't touch the red part. Do you? Do you have a favorite uh movie movie?
Share
Martina Navratilova
47:54
My favorite movie Kasha? There's few but anything with
Katharine Hepburn
and she was my favorite. I love one on Golden Pond and Kathy and not Casablanca
African Queen bringing a baby. All her movies.Share
Josh Hopkins
48:07
I love were those movies you were able to see like kind of, no, no, no, we couldn't see, I only saw that once.
Share
Martina Navratilova
48:14
I, once I left the country. So that was the other day, somebody was saying
Citizen Kane
and I know I need to see it, but I've never seen Citizen Kane
, so I need to watch that.Share
Josh Hopkins
48:24
Yeah, you should, you should uh front row center to see any band speaker, whatever Dead or alive. Front row center, who would you choose?
Share
Martina Navratilova
48:36
I think Ruth Ginsburg.
Share
Josh Hopkins
48:39
Okay.
Share
Martina Navratilova
48:40
I would have just liked to pick her brain. In fact, just the other day I wore the T shirt, You can't handle the roof.
Share
Rex Chapman
48:46
I've got one in my closet. I've got one in my closet. Yes.
Share
Martina Navratilova
48:52
Uh yeah, again, I think uh would be would be people that probably are, are not alive anymore. Uh you know like
Alexander the Great
and uh Greta Garbo
. Uh Maria Callas
, you know the people that were kind of ahead of their time.Share
49:10
Yeah,
Michelangelo
and and of course Leonard Davinci, I mean, yeah, I can't aim high,Share
Rex Chapman
49:18
Josh asked you do you have a favorite basketball player?
Share
Martina Navratilova
49:22
My my favorite basketball player. Well Michael Jordan. Of course Lebron, he just kind of takes over. But Giannis Antetokounmpo actually know how to spell his name.
Share
Rex Chapman
49:37
She is real josh. I told you she was real. You were saying she wasn't really uh
Share
Martina Navratilova
49:43
A N T E K O U N MPO sounds right to me. Okay. Oh, U N M P O O.
Share
Rex Chapman
49:56
Amazing. You're amazing.
Share
Josh Hopkins
50:01
Spell his name,
Luka Doncic
.Share
Rex Chapman
50:05
She doesn't know L U K A D O N C I C.
Share
Martina Navratilova
50:09
Yes, I know
Luka Doncic
.Share
Rex Chapman
50:10
I want to give you a hug, Martina thank you so much. Please. We could have done this forever. Please come back and do it another time.
Share
Josh Hopkins
50:21
We will.
Share
Martina Navratilova
50:22
We got to talk about politics next time you guys.
Share
Josh Hopkins
50:25
Pleasure pleasure.
Share
Rex Chapman
50:26
Thank you. Thanks Martina. Josh....
Share
Josh Hopkins
50:31
Oh my gosh, icon, icon icon. I knew she was ahead of her time. And even through speaking with him like she was way ahead of her time. She's so great.
Share
Rex Chapman
50:45
You know what I you and I were both nervous. We talked about it beforehand and normally we don't get that nervous, you know, basketball guys. And I was a little nervous. The second she came on I realized I hadn't been nervous enough.
Share
Josh Hopkins
51:06
Was terrified.
Share
Rex Chapman
51:09
I was terrified. I would have been throwing up all night if I had known that we actually we're gonna talk to her.
Share
Josh Hopkins
51:17
Yeah, I thought you were gonna zig and you zag. Well done. You know, I can't Yeah, same thing with me. And then I saw her just because she showed you, you know, she's down to earth was doing her thing so it put me at ease in one way but then I was just like what am I going to say?
Share
Rex Chapman
51:34
I am afraid what we said, is there anything you want to talk about or not talk about it? She said uh you know just I'm sure you guys will come up with something great, not just any of the old regular old stuff and I went oh my God, I think we only have all the old regular old stuff.
Share
Josh Hopkins
51:53
Yeah exactly. Then you're like uh yeah
Share
Rex Chapman
52:03
Everything growing up, what else is there? Grass roots activism, Can we talk activism? Uh what a fascinating, what a fascinating human being and you know just you can read about her all you want until you hear her talk about doing the hardest thing leaving her mom, her dad, her parents, her family not letting her mom know uh Yeah it really lets you know how how special how especially tough she is right?
Share
Josh Hopkins
52:47
Yeah, a lot of perspective with her entire life and where we are now and what she went through and I love what you said, she every difficult, really difficult things. She had to endure. It all came back to. I had already done the hardest thing that was that was amazing.
Share
Rex Chapman
53:06
Yeah man, I wish we could have talked to her forever and she is a basketball fan that's amazing.
Share
Josh Hopkins
53:13
Her left handed jumper looks good. Huh.
Share
Rex Chapman
53:17
Little goose neck. She Of course. Of course she can. Of course you can. I mean I had never picked up a basketball and then started playing one on 12 on two and three on three. What? Amazing. Amazing. Well josh. That was fun. A lot of fun. Uh Let's come back next week. And do and have another guest. What do you think for episode 20? What will that be? Episode 25. They're all running together 25. We're coming up on 25. Like we said in the intro. In the intro. 24 25 President. Remember? Alright. Alright. Alright buddy. Hey let's do it again. Same time next week on basketballnews. com. Please subscribe, rate and review.
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Rex Chapman
Josh Hopkins
Martina Navratilova