Monday, Mar 14, 2022 • 1h, 5min

163. The Last Emperor of Mexico

The Rest Is History
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What links the Mexican Republic, Palmerston, the Hapsburgs, Napoleon III and butterfly catching? Please tweet us if you can think of anything other than the following answer, which is the incredible story of the Last Emperor of Mexico. Tom and Dominic are joined by Edward Shawcross as they travel back to recount and discuss this amazing moment in Mexican history. Join The Rest Is History Club https://therestishistory.supportingcast.fm/ for ad-free listening to the full archive, weekly bonus episodes, live streamed shows and access to an exclusive chatroom community. ************************************ If you are a new listener to The Rest Is History, you might enjoy these episodes from the archive: Watergate https://play.acast.com/s/the-rest-is-history-podcast/107.watergate-part1 Alexander the Great https://play.acast.com/s/the-rest-is-history-podcast/116.alexanderthegreatpart1 Afghanistan https://play.acast.com/s/the-rest-is-history-podcast/87.afghanistan-part1 Producer: Dom Johnson Exec Producer: Jack Davenport Twitter: @TheRestHistory https://twitter.com/theresthistory @holland_tom https://twitter.com/holland_tom @dcsandbrook https://twitter.com/dcsandbrook Email: restishistorypod@gmail.com Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy https://acast.com/privacy for more information.
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Speakers
(3)
Edward Shawcross
Tom Holland
Dominic Sandbrook
Transcript
Verified
Break
Dominic Sandbrook
01:44
Hello, welcome to the rest is history in room 44 of the National Gallery in London. There hang the fragments of a large unfinished painting by the French impressionist
Edouard Manet
entitled
"The Execution Of Emperor
Maximilian"
in the center stand the members of a firing squad, their rifles leveled on the right. An officer is making the final adjustments to his own rifle and on the left. Well, the only hint of the condemned man is his hand.
Share
02:13
That's all we see of
Maximilian Von Habsburg-Lothringen
, Emperor of
Mexico
. The rest of him is missing and
Tom Holland
, there is a metaphor, there isn't there for the extraordinary, colorful, strange story of this ill-fated man.
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Tom Holland
02:29
It is, and you know, I mean I kind of vaguely had an awareness of it, principal, I have to say, through the
Manet
painting and reading up about him and discovering more about him. It actually reminds me a bit of General Gordon?
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Dominic Sandbrook
02:41
Yes, there's definitely General Gordon.
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Tom Holland
02:42
So the plot is, I mean this is a guy who is a
Hapsburg
archduke, and he goes off to
Mexico
and I don't think we're giving any spoilers, or you know, somebody who's already given it away, and he ends up in front of a firing squad so that there is a kind of slight parallel with Gordon, except that this story has a distinctively Latin American quality, and it comes across absolutely brilliantly in a new book.
Share
03:11
"The Last Emperor of
Mexico"
by Edward Shawcross, which I thought, I mean it has, I don't know if you have read the
Louis Bernier
novels that he wrote before Captain Correlli. There are kind of riff on the theme of Latin American magical realism.
Share
03:27
You know, so
Thomas Aquinas
turns into a hummingbird, that kind of stuff. It's and this story is so odd, it's so bizarre, it's so kind of baroque.
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Dominic Sandbrook
03:38
It's very magical realist, isn't it?
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Tom Holland
03:40
And it's so brilliantly told that it is a great privilege for
Us
to have the author with
Us
on the show, a Ed thanks so much for joining
Us
we both enjoyed this book so much, and it is an amazing story and as I said, this is a story that probably isn't widely known. So let's kick off with a question from
Harry
Lloyd Prentice, who asks who was the Last Emperor of
Mexico?
, but for now.
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Edward Shawcross
04:05
That's true. Well, thank you for that fantastic introduction. So the Last Emperor of
Mexico
is
Ferdinand Maximilian,
and he's a
Hapsburg
, but of course he's the younger brother or a younger brother of
Franz Joseph
, the Emperor of
Austria
. Now,
Maximilian
is a man who is absolutely convinced of his destiny to rule. And it's only by an accident of birth, that he's not the one who's going to be in charge of the
Austrian Empire
.
Share
04:30
Now
Maximilian
, he's an interesting character, very different from his brother. They're very close when they're young, but when
Franz Joseph
becomes emperor of
Austria
in 1848, the characteristics that that separate them become more important.
Share
04:42
So
Franz
,
Franz Joseph
very autocratic, rigid and conservative,
Maximilian
much more outgoing, gregarious and liberal. And what do you do with a younger brother who's outgoing, gregarious and liberal? You keep him far from power.
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Tom Holland
04:54
So that description of the slightly rigid, dutiful elder brother who goes on to attain a royal position on the throne and the slightly dreamier younger brother who ends up going to
America.
Dominic
, does that remind you of
Tom
and James Holland,
William
and
Harry
, isn't it?
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Dominic Sandbrook
05:16
Oh, really? I would never have guessed. Yeah, but the difference is that, well, we'll we'll explore some of the differences, but yes. So, so just to put this into context,
Maximilian
was born in 1832, I think. So, two years younger than
Franz Joseph
, is that about right?
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Edward Shawcross
05:32
That's absolute right, yeah.
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Dominic Sandbrook
05:32
Franz Joseph
? Yeah, the
Hapsburgs
are not quite what they were, but
Franz Joseph
still rules this sort of great patchwork of Central
Europe
, including a bit of Northern
Italy
. And meanwhile, so
Mexico
I suppose and the Spanish empire had once been a
Hapsburg
possession, but obviously that's a long time in the past, and what's going on in
Mexico
? I mean, why on earth would an Austrian end up in
Mexico
, Ed?
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Edward Shawcross
06:01
But that's an excellent question. So to take
Us
to
Mexico
, it becomes independent, unlike most other Latin American nations as a monarchy, a Spanish royalist changes sides, joins the independence movement, fights against the Spaniards and manages to unite the disparate forces fighting against
Spain
.
Share
06:17
Now he does that with this plan, which is that
Mexico
should become a monarchy ruled by a member of the Spanish royal family. The Spanish
King Ferdinand VII
, I think it's got to be one of the most incompetent monarchs of the 19th century and that's a highly competitive field, refuses point-blank to accept and, this plan whatsoever.
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06:36
So you're presented with a problem, you have a monarchy, but you don't have a monarch is to say, the Spanish royalist officer has changed sides. His solution is, he crowns himself emperor. So
Mexico
does become an empire as the first Mexican empire, but it's disastrous, his reign is short, nine months, and he's very quickly deposed, goes off into exile. Actually comes back in 1824 expecting to be welcomed as a hero. He's not, he's arrested and then executed for treason. So that's the first Emperor of Independent
Mexico
.
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07:04
Now after that,
Mexico
is plagued by instability. It does become a republic, but violence much more important than the ballot box and determine who holds power and if you want to see Sisyphean task, try and memorize every single Mexican president from 1824 to 1861, if you include the interim presidents and the president's who are not recognized by other presidents, it's near impossible.
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07:24
So you have what we might call anachronisticly a failed State in
Latin America
. But so far apart from that beginning with monarchy, not that different to the face of many other Latin American Republics.
Share
07:35
What also sets
Mexico
apart is its proximity to
The United States Of America
. And as a later president of
Mexico
famously says, "poor
Mexico
so far from God, so close to
the United States"
and know where would that have been more apparent than in 1846
The United States Of America
declares war in
Mexico
. It's a nakedly expansionist drive to dominate the North American continent.
Share
07:59
In just over a year,
US
Troops march up from
Veracruz
the main Atlantic port of
Mexico
and occupied the magnificent city, the capital of
Mexico
city
unfurling the Stars and Stripes across this glorious main square with the catholic cathedral looming over them. Now they only leave in an extraordinary high price.
Share
08:18
The Mexican government gets $15 million dollars which was nothing then bearing in mind that what
The United States Of America
is going to get, they're going to get half of
Mexico's
national territory, so this is places today like
California
for example and in return,
US
troops will end the occupation and the peace treaty is signed.
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08:35
So you not only do you have political instability, you have national humiliation and trauma and in the 1850s, things don't improve. There's a civil war between two rival factions, very loose political parties, liberals and conservatives. The liberals are led by
Benito Juárez
and their argument as to why
Mexico
is in a situation it is? Is that it's not liberal enough, it's not secular enough, they need to.
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Tom Holland
08:58
And Ed,
Juárez
, he's indigenous, isn't he? So he is indeed the Spanish descent.
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Edward Shawcross
09:02
Yes, he's from indigenous peoples of
Mexico
Zapotec
just outside of
Oaxaca
, which is Southeast
Mexico
.
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Tom Holland
09:10
He comes from an incredibly humble background.
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Edward Shawcross
09:13
Absolutely is an extraordinary figure, and as we'll see throughout this, this story, he's someone who, you know, he stays with it for the whole duration and of course stays with it for longer than
Maximilian
in the end, he's an extraordinary figure, determined on self-improvement.
Share
09:27
So if you read his own notes, his own kind of autobiographical notes, he talks about how he wanted to learn Spanish because Spanish wasn't his first language and this indigenous community that he grew up in the foothills and mountains very desolate. And so he wanted to learn Spanish to better himself, ad his uncle was one of the few people who spoke Spanish.
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09:44
So sort of after toiling all day in the field, he would go to his uncle's house, and he wasn't making sufficient progress in his studies, so he used to take a whip, and he would ask his uncle to beat him to improve his Spanish and that's the story that we needed to hold ourselves.
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Tom Holland
09:60
Tougher that Duolingo isn't?
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Dominic Sandbrook
10:01
That's very Gladstonian behavior.
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Edward Shawcross
10:03
So you've got this extraordinarily determined individual in
Benito Juárez,
and he comes to power, well, it's not him in party in 1855, but it's his party, and it's a group of much more radical liberals determined to break the power of the Catholic Church, which is not only has an enormous spiritual hold over
Mexico
, but as the biggest landowner is the principal economic powerhouse.
Share
10:24
And so the key reform here is a nationalized church property and sell it on the open market as you know, any good liberal will, which has two happy effects of that, one you break the power of the Catholic Church and two you enriched the coffers of the government treasury.
Share
10:38
Now for the other faction, the conservatives, the reason why
Mexico
has been humiliated, and it's politically unstable is not because it's not liberal enough, but because it's gone too far in that direction. And the only thing they argued that meaningfully binds
Mexico
together as a nation State is Catholicism. So you have a bitter divide over to the future of
Mexico
.
Share
10:57
Long story short
Benito Juárez
, liberals win, they entered the capital in triumph in 1861 conservatives are defeated, and they flee many of them in exile.
Benito Juárez
hold elections and becomes the constitutional president of
Mexico
. But those exiles never accept, and actually many conservatives still in
Mexico
never accept that result. Shock horror. Disgraceful behavior in the 19th century.
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Dominic Sandbrook
11:21
So to put this into context, Ed you just said 1861. So 1861 is the year of the outbreak of the American
Civil War
. So at this point, the big sort of bullying neighbor to the north is absorbed by its own problems because of course, actually now to the north of
Mexico
, it's the confederate states of
America
fighting The Civil War against the
Union
.
Share
11:40
Now, the other issue I guess is am I right in thinking there's that the major problem for
Mexico
is indebtedness. It's a problem of so many countries and what we would now call the developing world in the 19th century, they've run up colossal debts to
Europe
, largely to European sort of lenders, haven't they?
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Edward Shawcross
11:58
They have, and the Mexican government particularly took out a series of loans in the 1820s, which they never paid back. And the principal debtor to the nation to whom they owed a debt is actually
Britain
. But they have also money which they owe to
France,
in which they owe to
Spain
. Now, given the political history of
Mexico
, given the
US
Mexican War and The Civil War that we've just described, the treasury is not overflowing, you won't be surprised to hear.
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12:23
So what
Benito Juárez
does as an emergency measure is he suspends foreign debt payment. He asked what he doesn't ask, he declares it at congress that declares two years without paying foreign debt. Now in the mid 19th century, that kind of behavior has a pretty quick response from European powers, which is military intervention.
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Tom Holland
12:42
Right? So we have, on the one hand, a man of peasant background, indigenous, didn't even learn to speak Spanish. Holed himself up from his bootstraps, has become the president of a liberal but massively indebted Mexican Republic. On the other hand, we've already introduced him
Maximilian
, the archduke, one of the long line of
Hapsburgs
, one of probably the most famous royal dynasty in the whole of
Europe
.
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13:11
Now the person who brings them together, who joins, who binds their fates together.
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13:17
I think we can say the villain of this podcast on.
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Dominic Sandbrook
13:19
Would he be by any chance a Frenchman?
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Edward Shawcross
13:23
He is, he is a Frenchman in some ways, the quintessential Frenchman in other ways, not this is
Napoleon III
nephew of the more famous
Napoleon
. A man, similarly, we've got quite a few people in the story convinced of their destiny.
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13:37
Napoleon III
is convinced that he is the man who will lead
France
back to greatness and more importantly, he himself to greatness and restore his uncle's empire in some form, which he does manage to do despite several failed attempts in the 1830s and 1840s, he's actually the first ever democratically elected president of
France
happens to be a Bonaparte, Louis
Napoleon
Bonaparte, I should say it's universal male suffrage in this case.
Share
14:02
The problem he has is that the second republic, the regime that he is now president of, has the constitution which prohibits in being reelected. So he does what any self-respecting Bonapartist would do, launches a coup d'etat against his own government. And a year later in 1852 declared himself emperor of the French.
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Tom Holland
14:18
Yeah, that's so Napoleonic. And so presumably he is self-consciously following in the footsteps of his uncle.
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Edward Shawcross
14:25
I think he wakes up every day and asked himself what would my uncle have done and try to do some kind of version of it. But what's important as well about that, that moment in 1851 where he launches the coup d'etat. Is that what he has done there is he has destroyed a republic and on the ashes of that republic, created an empire, a monarchy.
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14:44
This is where the famous
Karl Marx
quote comes "the first time is tragedy, the second time is fast" if people have heard of
Napoleon
that it's often through that, through that
Karl Marx
quote, talking about the coup. But in the 1850s, there's not very much farcical at all about his regime. In fact, the economy booms, the foreign policy is a success, he allied with
Britain
advising the, more they invade
Northern
Italy
in 1859, defeating
Franz Joseph.
Share
15:07
And it seems as though he's ended
France's
isolation, restored
France
to greatness to some extent, and has created a domestically stable political system. So this is something that monarchists and conservatives in
Mexico
take a look at, and they have the ear of
Napoleon III
through his wife, the
Empress Eugénie
. Their pitch to him is to make
Mexico
great again, coin of phrase, you need to return to the original idea of independence, which is monarchy.
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15:33
And so they tell
Napoleon III
, it's going to be incredibly easy. All we would need is a few 1000 French troops. We'll turn up there, we'll declare the plan, which is to restore
Mexico
to its original State of monarchy. Mexican conservatives who have been defeated by
Juárez
were flocked to the banner and
Benito Juárez
. He may say he's a liberal, actually, he's a despot, it's a radical minority, oppressing the silent majority of Mexicans who will once
Maximilian
turns up to claim him as emperor.
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Dominic Sandbrook
16:01
Right,
Napoleon
. Now what's in it for him? Because obviously
France
, you know, it hasn't been a great colonial power in Latin, what we now think of as
Latin America
and
South America
,
Central America
or the bottom bit of
North America
?
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16:13
Is he thinking he can carve out a new French American empire? or is he after the natural resources? Does he just want his debt's paid? Or is it just about pressed, what is it? What does he think he's going to get?
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Edward Shawcross
16:26
It's a mixture of all of those things in fact. But one I think one thing that's interesting to flag here is he does have incredibly grand vision for
Latin America
and that term.
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Tom Holland
16:36
Well, he comes up with the term, doesn't he?
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Edward Shawcross
16:38
He doesn't come up with the term, but the term is his first point in
Paris
in the 1850s, and it's a bit of dispute is about who said what and when, but it's mid 1850s, it's in
Paris
where this idea of
Latin America
bubbles up and begins to get expressed. One vision of
Latin America
which is one that
Napoleon III
is sympathetic to is this idea of southern countries with the catholic tradition and culture, have an affinity with the southern European catholic countries and of course the most powerful southern European catholic countries
France
.
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17:11
So
Latin America,
and it's that term Latin is in opposition to Anglo-Saxon, northern
The United States Of America
right? And the reason why it becomes coined in the 1850s is because you're demarcated in an area of influence for
France
that is in opposition to further
US
aggression because no one in the 1850s thinks that
US
expansion is going to stop where it stops.
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Dominic Sandbrook
17:35
But the
US
have proclaimed the Monroe Doctrine though, haven't they? So they basically said the
US
have publicly said they don't want European powers, you know, involved in the western hemisphere anymore. But
Napoleon III
still thinks he can get away with it. He thinks kind of said the
US
. They've got their own troubles about slavery. I can just ignore them. Is that basically I mean, or am I being too simplistic?
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Edward Shawcross
17:57
No, not at all, and it's precisely because of the
US
Civil War
that
Napoleon III
is able to try and put his vision into practice because torn apart with the conflict between Union and Confederacy, the Monroe Doctrine which is incredibly popular actually and that sort of nationalist cornerstone of foreign policy. It's not just in the corridors of power where it's discussed. It's something that you can get up on and talk about in elections and people cheer.
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18:21
They cannot fear they cannot risk rather antagonizing the French and getting the French involved into The Civil War potentially recognizing the Confederacy were still offering some kind of mediation or perhaps even getting involved militarily. So the Monroe Doctrine interesting Lincoln doesn't use the phrase Monroe Doctrine once from 1865, 1861 to 1865.
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Tom Holland
18:41
Well because in your book you described this you know this this this episode as the greatest challenge to the Monroe Doctrine until the Cuban missile crisis which is, you know I mean that's quite something it's it gives you a sense of the kind of geopolitical stakes that were involved in what might seem a, you know, and almost kind of opera buffet kind of episode.
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Edward Shawcross
19:02
But I completely agree, and I stand by that, and this is this French intervention, monarchy, Catholicism on the border of
The United States Of America
. I mean, this is the very nightmare that everyone is turning up on your doorstep. I mean, you know, this is what people.
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Tom Holland
19:21
The horror.
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Edward Shawcross
19:21
The horror., exactly.
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Dominic Sandbrook
19:22
Say
Tom
says,
Hapsburgs
,
Napoleon
needs a candidate, he doesn't think of picking. I mean, I'll tell you what his uncle would have done, Ed, his uncle would have picked one of his family. Why doesn't
Napoleon
do that?
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Edward Shawcross
19:35
Of course. And he's got plenty, there are loads of Bonaparte's lying around, that's part of the reason why they keep coming back, so I think even for a man of self obsessed with the Bonaparte is method is
Napoleon III
. He feels that that's one sort of area of policy in which he shouldn't emulate his uncle.
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19:52
And it's also a sense because he is trying to, and we'll see this when we get into what he creates the independence of
Mexico
is central to the idea, now whether there is any independence or not, something we can discuss later, but having about, you know, his half brother or a cousin or whatever on the throne of
Mexico
is not a strong look. So that's not an option for him.
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20:14
Bonaparte is relations with the French royal houses is of course not brilliant, so you can't have a French monarch. And the some, in some of the sort of ultra Conservative Mexicans, wouldn't mind the Spanish monarch. But even with their limited horizons, they're aware that the sort of toxic legacy of Spanish colonialism means that's a hard sell. But also if you're, you know, if you're looking for a monarch in the 19th century, the name
Hapsburg
is the illustrious one that sort of stands out above all others.
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20:44
And so you could get a
Hapsburg
onboard, and that would be a fantastic for the project. And of course the connection as well with the 16th century, it's under emperor Charles the fifth, also King of
Spain
that
Mexico
is first subjugated and brought under the Spanish empire. So you have that legacy as well.
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Tom Holland
21:00
And they're not to be reductive, but also
Maximilian
looks like an emperor, right, impressive looking guy with a beard, I mean, but obviously the look of the whole business is going to be very important. I mean, it's there's a slight element of smoke and mirrors about the whole concept, which is and which of course is a huge part of monarchy and indeed a huge part of maxim in Ian's life.
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Edward Shawcross
21:20
I mean, he's obsessed with the minutiae of of of detail and etiquette, but also the outward appearance of monarchy. And so yeah, absolutely, he does. He fit, he fits the role. And the other reason is that he's available because, as we said earlier, he's been sidelined by his brother
Franz Joseph
.
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21:37
And if we are going to make the
Harry
connection then.
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Tom Holland
21:41
Who is
Meghan
?
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Edward Shawcross
21:43
Every
Harry
needs their
Meghan
and so enter
Maximilian's
Meghan
, she's princess
Charlotte.
Now, she's better known to Mexican history is
Carlotta
, but she's the daughter of the Belgian king
Leopold
and her mother's side related to the kings and queens of
France
.
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21:59
So she has a and to push me
Meghan
analogy further, she by virtue of being a Belgian princess, she's not someone who is on an equal footing with the
Hapsburgs.
Now
Maximilian
has been sent on one of these sort of various pointless diplomatic missions that his brother likes to get him on because it gets him out of
Austria
and away from the center of power.
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22:19
And he's very dismissive of going to the Belgian court. He thinks it's disgusting that someone like him should have to go to a monarchy, which was only created in 1831, you know, a year before he was born, so it's hard for
Us
to take it seriously.
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22:33
And when he's there, he goes to one of these balls, and he says it's awful because, you know, the elite of the country sort of mixing and talking with their tailors and cobblers and that's the kind of thing that shouldn't be allowed to happen. One thing he does like though is Princess
Charlotte
,
Carlota
.
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Tom Holland
22:48
Well, do you know, I'm not surprised because
Dominic
did you pick up on this that her favorite subjects when she was aged 12?
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Dominic Sandbrook
22:55
Remind me
Tom.
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Tom Holland
22:56
Religion and Plutarch, what a girl! What a girl!
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Dominic Sandbrook
23:03
A nightmarous image.
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Tom Holland
23:04
Like Mariette, like a shot.
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Edward Shawcross
23:05
Which is exactly what
Maximilian
thinks and indeed then does, within months they're married, and she's she's fiercely ambitious herself. But obviously as an aristocratic woman in the 19th century, she needs her husband for a meaningful political role.
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Dominic Sandbrook
23:19
And she has a sense of destiny, doesn't she? Like everybody on this story.
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23:23
Everyone has a sense of destiny.
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23:24
God has, God has picked her for some unspecified purposes, is that right?
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Edward Shawcross
23:28
She's incredibly pious and incredibly catholic and yes, and very much buys into that vision of providence is the word that she always uses.
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23:36
And part of the condition, the
Leopold the I,
agrees to it on the provider that
Franz Joseph
gives
Maximilian
a position of power, a meaningful position of power and that is governor of
Lombardy Venetia
, which is one of the richest parts of the
Austrian Empire
at this time in Northern
Italy
, but it's a poison chalice because the forces of Italian nationalism make this an incredibly difficult job for anyone to do well and succeed in.
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24:02
So it's very much, "oh you wanted a position of power, here you go try this" even then
Franz
raises quite careful to keep real power in
Vienna
and away from
Maximilian.
And within two years,
Napoleon III
who had a sort of youth of romantic love of Italian nationalism backs Piedmont, invades
Northern
Italy
with 200,000 troops and defeats
Franz Joseph
in
Northern
Italy.
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24:27
Franz Joseph
has sort of weeks before sacked
Maximilian
as well, very humiliatingly. So what you have by the end of the 1850s and 1860s is you have
Maximilian
and
Carlotta
who are underemployed, underappreciated, but both convinced that they have a much greater destiny.
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Dominic Sandbrook
24:43
So just to put this into just to absolutely nail this down, they have never been to
Mexico
.
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Edward Shawcross
24:49
Never.
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Dominic Sandbrook
24:50
They don't speak Spanish.
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Edward Shawcross
24:53
Well.
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Dominic Sandbrook
24:54
Not at this point.
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Edward Shawcross
24:55
Not fluently, not fluently.
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Dominic Sandbrook
24:56
So they don't fluent Spanish speakers, they've never crossed the Atlantic?
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Edward Shawcross
25:01
Maximilian
has, actually, he's been to
Brazil
after he gets sacked as governor,
Lombardy Venetia
last travel that sort of wonder lasted traveling the globe to the exotic and
Alexander Von Humboldt
is one of his great heroes.
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Dominic Sandbrook
25:16
But he's not been to
North America
.
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Edward Shawcross
25:18
No, he is not,
Brazil
is a very long way away to
Mexico
.
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Dominic Sandbrook
25:21
I have been to a Brazilian restaurant, but I wouldn't apply to become emperor of
Brazil
.
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Edward Shawcross
25:26
Have you been to
Mexico
? Well no, I have been to
Brazil
, though.
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Tom Holland
25:30
Yeah, that's his pitch, so obviously it's a brilliant idea.
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Edward Shawcross
25:35
To them, it does seem like a brilliant idea, it does.
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Tom Holland
25:39
And so basically he signs up to it,
Carlotta
signs up to it, and they decide that they will go, they accept this. I think we should take a break at this point. And when we come back, we should look at the story of what actually happens when
Maximilian
and
Carlotta
set sail for their kingdom.
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Break
Tom Holland
29:45
They're going to
Mexico,
which I cannot understand that. That was
Queen Victoria
commenting on
Maximilian
and
Carlotta
.
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Dominic Sandbrook
29:53
That's very Liam Neeson, straight creepy boy, I thought as he tumbled there he go.
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29:55
Actually, it was
Queen Victoria
, everyone would know that was
Queen Victoria
. I mean, obviously your
Queen Victoria
"now I'm going to
Mexico
, which I cannot understand". But enough of that Ed we have
Maximilian
and
Carlotta
are heading off to
Mexico
and this is a
Mexico
that has basically been, it's under French occupation, is that right? Or most of it is the central part of it is
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Edward Shawcross
30:19
That's a good way of describing it
Tom,
so the reason why
Napoleon III
had accepted it and
Maximilian
Carlotta
too is because it was thought that it would be fairly easy to put into practice. In fact, it's a massive undertaking that requires regime change.
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30:35
So,
Napoleon
in 1862, he only sends 6,000 troops and that's how easy he thinks it's going to be to work his way up from
Veracruz
to
Mexico
City
and the over land route same route that the conquistadors.
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Tom Holland
30:45
Because he's kind of influenced by the, you know, the story of
Cortés
conquering the Aztecs. I mean, is it just this kind of idea that it's really easy to conquer
Mexico
City.
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Edward Shawcross
30:56
That looms so large in the minds of the soldiers and in the mind of
Napoleon III
. All I would say there's a caveat to that is that the
US
expeditionary force that fights its way along exactly the same route, there's only one route to
Mexico City
from
Veracruz
right you're going to take is only about 12,000 men.
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31:11
So
Napoleon III
sent half that, but what he thinks will happen is that Mexican monarchist Mexican conservatives were rallied to the French flag, and therefore he's got much more support than
The United States Of America
had. So it's part delusion but partially based on what he thinks happened, you know a few decades ago a couple of decades ago of that.
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31:30
These 6,000 troops they're on their way to
Mexico
City
and to get there you have to go past the
Mexico's
great second city,
Puebla
. And the French commander is incredibly confident because remember this is the French army that defeated the Russians in Crimea defeated the Austrians in 1859, and so he deploys before this city magnificent with churches and convents, you'd love it Tom.
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31:51
And gives the order for wave after wave of French troops just to attack frontal assault on to the city, but they are cut down by the heroic resistance of
Benito Juarez's
army, which of course has remained loyal to the constitutional president rather than rallying to the flag of a French invader.
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32:08
So that's just to get and that's sorry by the way I should say that goes down in history of
Cinco De Mayo
because that's on fifth of May.
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Dominic Sandbrook
32:12
Is a Mexican National Holiday, isn't it? I mean they still remember it.
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Edward Shawcross
32:15
It's often it is, it's a big deal, but it's often mistaken for Mexican Independence. And it's not it's actually celebrating this victory at the
Battle Of Puebla
. So that gives you an indication of how difficult the situation is and so difficult. Is it that that pacification, which is the euphemism the French used for their brutal counterinsurgency tactics. It takes another year for them to get to
Mexico
City, and it takes yet another year for
Maximilian
and
Carlotta
to make the voyage across to
Mexico
. So they don't get there until May 1864.
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Tom Holland
32:43
And I mean there are some hilariously badly behaved Frenchman in this story, so there's this diplomat Dubois de Saligny who's I mean he seems the worst diplomat in diplomatic history. I mean, his chief talent seems to be for offending people. There's a general Faure who is so fat that a chair collapses under him.
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33:06
And then there's this terrifying colonel who is who's kind of counterinsurgency record is reminiscent of the battle of Algiers. I mean, this is it's not a kind of dream team, is it? A French dream team in terms of nation building.
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Edward Shawcross
33:21
It's not a great, it's not a dream team for nation building at all, no, and the counterinsurgency Colonel Charles Dupont is an extraordinary figure, sort of the reverse of General Gordon. Although actually perhaps not in one way, but one of his fellow French officers said of Dupont, "he had all devices known to man except for drink".
Share
33:39
But actually I think that makes it slightly more terrifying because he's put in charge of counterinsurgency. He was actually thrown out of the French army, not polluting the Summer palace in Beijing. So he was in the opium wars. Of course, he was.
Mexico
is a conflict that drags in the sort of the dregs and soldiers of fortune's or and various imperialist and ventures.
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33:57
Now he was, he was unlike General Gordon, he was, leading the charge, was literally one of the first in and first out with as much loot as he could. He then went back to
Paris
and just openly sold it, which even for you know the Second empire
Napoleon III
was considered corruption too much. He was kicked out of the French army. But when he heard they were going to
Mexico
Napoleon
that he wrote to
Napoleon III
and said, "well this is you know, this is the kind of place I excel in".
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34:21
And
Napoleon III
essentially backs him and gets him off to
Mexico
where he sets up this counter guerilla unit. To defeat the forces we need to acquire, he never surrendered by the way, requires just retreating northwards from
Mexico
City
after the French take the capital. And he, this is an extraordinary letter that he writes to his niece where he says, "I have waged an atrocious war. If I were Mexican, what hatred I would have for the French and how I would make them suffer?"
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34:49
Why would you write that to your niece? I mean, I'd like to see what she wrote back.
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Dominic Sandbrook
34:55
Thanks for the necklace, enjoyed the thoughts about the war.
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Edward Shawcross
34:59
But the serious point is as
Tom
says, if you're trying, if you're trying to win over hearts and minds to use the phrase that would probably be used today in this kind of foreign intervention, having someone who is burning down villages, summary executing people suspected of aiding
Benito Juárez
and generally causing all kinds of trouble is not necessarily the person that you want.
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35:20
And so
Maximilian
has that problem. How do you win over a population that is potentially hostile anyway, and even more so when they born the brunt of the French army?
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Dominic Sandbrook
35:31
But the amazing thing is that
Maximilian
is kind of oblivious to this, isn't he? Because
Napoleon
has said to him, if I remember this right from the book,
Napoleon
has said, everybody in
Mexico
is absolutely on board with you arriving, and it's only a tiny minority who are making a fuss.
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35:49
And also
Napoleon
has said, crucially, "the British are completely on board with this, and they'll support you as well", which is an outright lie. The British have already said, haven't they? "We're not going to intervene, we're not going to bail you out if it goes wrong". But
Maximilian
is its self-delusion, or was he genuinely deluded by the French?
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Edward Shawcross
36:08
I think it's a bit of both, I think that he wants to be misled. So
Napoleon III
does spin an incredibly elaborate diplomatic game. And he's
Napoleon
was a man who loves conspiracies and back channels and smoke filled rooms, and so this is a fantastic opportunity for him to really put that into practice.
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36:24
He absolutely misleads
Maximilian
about the popularity of monarchy in
Mexico,
and he completely deceived him about the British view and the British, is interesting, but it's slightly ambivalent because although so Palmerston is Prime Minister at this time. And although no lover of the French, he's absolutely no lover of
The United States Of America
.
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36:44
And so when this plan is put to him, he says, "well it would cost tens of millions of pounds would have to send 20,000 troops", that's no way
Britain
would do that. But if
France
wants to push back the part of
the United States
America
for us, we shouldn't, you know, that would be fantastic. So actually Russell, his foreign secretary wants to write a letter to
Maximilian
because
Maximilian
condition of accepting the crown is British support and Palmerston says "no, no, no, no, no, don't write the letter, keep it ambiguous, keep it ambiguous".
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37:07
So
Maximilian
, he is misled, but there's, you know, there's sort of a lot of intrigue going on, which is probably, you know, it's slightly above anything that he would be able to comprehend.
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Tom Holland
37:16
But Ed you have, so you have a brilliant passage in your book where you describe how
Maximilian,
Carlotta
and all their gang come from
Veracruz
to
Mexico
City, and they all have to kind of get off the train and get picked up by mules. And you describe it, this caravan presented an extraordinary sight. The elite of
Hapsburg
society, dressed in the finest European fashions, driven towards the capital by local mullet ears, clothed in leather jackets, goatskin trousers and wide gold trim sombreros.
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37:45
And that's what I mean about the kind of magical realist quality because it's the conjunction of these two fabulously remote and different worlds coming together that just kind of seems to generate. I mean, it's a kind of tragic comedy, isn't it?
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Dominic Sandbrook
37:58
So they have like they have hundreds of pieces of luggage. I mean, they basically brought everything with them, and they've also brought, am I right, something they brought their own personal orchestra conductor?
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Edward Shawcross
38:08
We can't go to? Of course you can, you can't be an emperor without that.
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Dominic Sandbrook
38:12
I mean, they just have clearly no clue. Are we, or are we being too harsh?
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Tom Holland
38:17
And billiards, billiards tables because that's the brilliant thing that if a guest loses
Maximilian
forces him to crawl under the table as a forfeit, but if
Maximilian
loses, then a servant does it for him. I mean, this is quality emperor ship, it is, isn't it?
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Edward Shawcross
38:33
So there are many reasons that
Maximilian
is not necessarily the man for the job because he's faced with an extraordinary situation and difficult problems and to overcome the requirement of equally extraordinary ability. And there are elements to him which, as you say, let's lend themselves to too fast. And one of them is his obsession with etiquette and court ceremony. Hence, why you need to have the orchestra with you because you need to have the right music playing at the right time.
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38:57
So on the long sea voyage over to
Mexico
where you think that he might in fact be, you know, reading up on the history and politics of the country he's about to rule. He actually spends most of his time writing a 600-page guide to the etiquette that will be followed at his court.
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Dominic Sandbrook
39:11
How important.
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Edward Shawcross
39:12
It's well, that's the thing that's, so you can't, you know, his enemies of course they wouldn't even, it's absurd that he's worried about, you know, what shoes to wear. But what you, the other thing this is of course is that etiquette is incredibly important to monarchy. And as
Tom
was saying earlier, partially it is the image, it's the pomp and the ceremony and there is no court in
Mexico
because it's a republic. So in order for that to be established, it has to be created and monarchy it's so much depends doesn't it on the outward appearance of sort of grandeur and majesty.
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Tom Holland
39:43
There's a paradox isn't there about
Maximilian
, which is that although we're making him sound a kind of very stiff, pompous, faintly foolish figure, and although he's been sponsored by
Napoleon III
, and although he's been backed by the monarchists, in fact, he's a very, very liberal figure, I mean, and not just by the standards of the
Hapsburgs
, I mean, you know, by anybody's standards, and he brings in a whole range of remarkably progressive laws among which am I right? He's the first person to introduce a legally guaranteed lunch break.
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Edward Shawcross
40:11
I'm not sure whether he's the first person, but.
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Dominic Sandbrook
40:14
I mean, that is a Corbyn night measure.
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Edward Shawcross
40:16
Isn't it? He does, he does, he takes incredible. So this is, but again, it sort of backfired from, so you're absolutely right, he is liberal and very progressive by the standards of the day. But of course, the people who have called him to rule over him are these Mexican catholic conservatives who want to restore the power of the church. Now, that's anathema to
Maximilian
way of thinking, and part of the reason why he became so distant to
Franz Joseph
was exactly because he disagreed over this kind of this kind of policies.
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40:43
So when he comes to
Mexico
, the conservatives are expecting, you know, the sort of ultra maintained catholic monarch and autocracy and what they get is a slightly watered down version of
Benito Juárez
liberalism. He confirms that key policy that
Benito Juárez
had been fighting for the nationalization of church property to the horror of his own allies, so what he does.
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Tom Holland
41:04
Is that because he genuinely believes that's the right thing to do? Or is it because actually he's politically astute enough to recognize that he has to do that if he, but it's not foundations for his regime.
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Dominic Sandbrook
41:14
But
Tom
I don't think it is astute, you see, now, regular listeners will expect this from me. Is there not an argument Ed, that
Maximilian
could have prevailed if he'd just been if he'd really gone all out with all in with the conservatives, it's basically been more partisan and less liberal.
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Tom Holland
41:31
A question from Peter Edmund, would the emperor
Maximilian
have been more successful? Had he been less liberal, would've fully reactionary monarch, Sandbrook style have had a better chance?
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Edward Shawcross
41:42
Yeah, the dream of authoritarians everywhere, it's a really interesting question, I think, in terms of counterfactual. Yes, so we're dealing with that point first, the thing about, I think actually, he is a genuine liberal, but he's also, we've painted him a slightly finished figure, but he's also doing something pragmatic here.
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42:03
If the Mexican conservatives have been powerful enough to achieve what they wanted to achieve, they would have done it, they lost The Civil War, and they need the help of
France
in order to create this monarchical regime, that Conservative project has failed. Now he does alienate his Conservative allies, but when push comes to shove, they're going they are going to back him right if necessary, and they see what they do.
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42:25
What, who the people who will not back him, even moderate liberals will not back a reactionary government in
Mexico
and therefore winning over Juaristas is something that he genuinely believes is the right thing. He is a moderate liberal, but also is something that might give his empire a much firmer base for the long term.
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42:45
There's another constraint though, which is in fact
Napoleon III
, because
Napoleon III
keen not to be seen as reactionary himself, and he refuses to allow, he wouldn't have allowed the conservatives to overturn the nationalization of church property because that was actually one of the foundational resolutions of the 1789 resolution in
France
and a pony in the third. Although we think of him as autocratic and dictatorial. He himself saw himself as plowing a sort of middle road between liberals and conservatives. And so there are also constraints on
Maximilian
.
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43:14
It's a real counterfactual, sorry, as a real I mean, that's I think that's a good one. I think it would have to be combined with something else, and it's that this has to work and happen in 1862, by 1864, you've only got one year until the end of the American
Civil War
. And so that geopolitical space to carve out a monarchy on the border of
the United States
America
is quickly vanishing.
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Dominic Sandbrook
43:34
So what
Maximilian
has got into basically, it's a situation of an incredibly narrow time window, colossal constraints, his foreign patron, the issues on the ground, all this stuff. And also the fact, I mean, do you not think that Ed, he's I mean, he is totally out of his depth, isn't he? I mean, this is this kind of situation that he's never, ever had to deal with his
Franz Joseph's
younger brother when he was running the Austrian Navy or whatever.
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43:59
I mean, all this stuff about sort of rebranding himself as the champion of the indigenous people and dressing as a cowboy. Why not? I mean, these are all they're bound to fail, aren't they? Or am I being too harsh?
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Tom Holland
44:11
Well, but isn't also, I mean, he's gone in there to, he's under an obligation to
Napoleon III
to pay back this debt that has been kind of ticking away.
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Dominic Sandbrook
44:20
I mean, that's never going to be popular, is it?
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Edward Shawcross
44:22
Of course, of course. And I think the other thing to bear in mind is his opponent, that man we talked about earlier,
Benito Juárez
who is absolutely determined that he will never give in to the forces of European imperialism, monarchy and ultimately
Maximilian
back as conservatism.
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44:38
In fact,
Benito Juárez
, his former foreign minister, urges
Benito Juárez
requires to resign. He says "there's no way you will be able to defeat
Maximilian
backed by the French, we have to come to an accommodation and look,
Maximilian
is liberal anyway". And
Benito Juárez
completely rejects it. So I think it's also what the opponent that he's dealing with that makes it difficult. The resistance is determined and heroic.
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Tom Holland
45:00
But for a brief while, I mean, what a year, a couple of years things kind of go, okay, you know, he brings in measures, he has them translated into Nahuatl, which is the language of the Aztecs and all this kind of stuff. And it's all ticking along and then, and then it all starts to crumble. And is that due to circumstances within
Mexico
or is it the effect of the ending of the American
Civil War,
or it's both French politics?
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Edward Shawcross
45:26
In fact, all three. So the fact that
Benito Juárez
has been able to hold out for as long as he has and his undefeated is crucial. It buys him and the Republican forces in
Mexico
time that they need, and what they need desperately is more money, and they need resupply as well in terms of munitions, and they get that with the end of the American
Civil War
.
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45:45
During the American
Civil War
, there's an arms embargo. And as we said, Lincoln is desperate not to do anything to offend
France
lest he might tip the balance in his own internal conflict. Once that's over, the arms embargo is lifted. Quarries have access to guns, they have access to money, and they can begin to resupply.
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46:01
Also, crucially, what
Washington
can now do is pressure
Napoleon III
. And we can now start talking about the Monroe Doctrine without fear of any meaningful French Reprisal, which is exactly what happens.
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46:13
So would
William Seward
, who is the Secretary of State, essentially by the end of 1865 gives
Napoleon III
and automate get your troops out of
Mexico,
or it's war at the same time,
Maximilian
are not least because of his portion for orchestras and champagne and interior design and decoration and making all these wonderful residences.
Share
46:32
His government is bankrupt. So he writes to
Napoleon III
at the end of the 1865 as well and says, "oh by the way, the payments that we agreed to keep the French army in
Mexico
, I can't make them anymore. Obviously we're friends, so it doesn't matter, can you just cover it for me?"
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46:47
So that's looking bad, that's looking bad. And then
Carlotta
goes to
Europe
, right? So she's been, she's really loved being an empress, she's great upstairs, she's had an absolute ball. I mean often literally, but she, so she now goes back to
Europe
and that's partly to kind of finesse things with
Napoleon III
, but that's also the Papacy.
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Dominic Sandbrook
47:10
She's already said to
Maximilian,
hasn't she,
Tom?
"You can't abdicate", you know, basically
Theodora of Justinian
in the
Byzantine Empire
. You know, the purple is a great winding sheet or whatever, "I'd rather die an emperor than live as a slave".
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Tom Holland
47:24
But he agrees, a true
Hapsburg
never leaves his post in the moment of danger. But anyway, so she heads off to
Europe
, and it goes badly wrong.
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Edward Shawcross
47:35
It does, so she said, when
Maximilian
finds out that
Napoleon III
is going to abandon him, he does rather petrol and says "Oh well fine I will abdicate if you don't want me here",
Carlotta
is furious, and she says, "no, you must stay there" and convinces him exactly what you say to him that the houseboat never leaves his post. So resolved to stage, she'll go to
Paris,
and she'll persuade
Napoleon III
that to change his mind.
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47:57
So she voyages over in the summer of 1866 and arrives in
France
, I have a lot of sympathy. We've all been in the situation, haven't we? With
Napoleon III
? He does everything he can to avoid this meeting, no one likes to be reminded of their foreign policy mistakes, and so he says, "well, I'm not feeling very well, and why wouldn't you rather speak to this person, and perhaps we could do it next time?".
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Tom Holland
48:15
Covid
?
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Edward Shawcross
48:16
I'm isolating. Eventually he's shamed into it. And,
Carlotta
, as we said, her favorite subjects of religion and the classics, so she's done her homework. She's brought letters that
Napoleon
had written to
Maximilian
saying, you know, my support will never fail you. Now, of course, he earlier in, the opponent has announced publicly that his support has massively failed and that French troops are coming home.
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48:41
So
Carlotta
brings these letters out and put them in front of
Napoleon III
in an incredibly dramatic meeting and
Napoleon III
starts crying, but he doesn't change his mind.
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Tom Holland
48:51
Shaking his head.
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Dominic Sandbrook
48:52
Such Gaelic conduct, I mean, the story of this podcast, could have been written by Dr Johnson or somebody.
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Edward Shawcross
48:59
And actually there's a moment where a servant comes in and serves refreshments, and it's slightly it's like it's slightly sort of befuddles
Carlotta
and she sort of talks herself out of it. "So I see what's happened, your ministers are forcing you to do this, it's not your decision. Let me speak with them. I'll to convince them, and they'll convince you".
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49:15
And he says absolutely, "I will set up those meetings, you can have you can have a whole suite of rooms, student, whatever you want". And of course, you know, foreign policy is to preserve the emperor anyway. But his ministers never supported it in the first place, it's hugely unpopular in
France
, the decision stands.
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49:29
But
Carlotta
has got one trick left up her sleeve, which is to go to the
Vatican
and have a meeting with the Pope because as we said,
Maximilian
liberal policies have alienated his core catholic Conservative constituency, but if they are backed by the Pope, then of course, that brings the Catholics in
Mexico
onboard, so there's still hope. She travels over land to roam, arrives there. I think it's in September of 1866.
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49:53
The first meeting goes relatively unproblematic, it's the second meeting where things begin to unravel because she's the pressure is enormous. She's convinced her husband to stay in
Mexico
, the empire looks like it's falling apart, and this mission with the Pope is crucial. She can't wait for it and her health is beginning to suffer, and she demands to be driven to the
Vatican
unannounced.
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50:17
She breaks into the
Vatican
. I mean, how do you stop the empress of
Mexico
? If you're just on the door to let them through. Demands to see the Pope, eventually, the Pope will arouse, presumably in his paper pajamas. What's what's going on? "In the corridors of the
Vatican
confronted with the empress of
Mexico.
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50:33
And she breaks down in uncontrollable sobs, screaming, and what she's screaming is that
Napoleon III
is trying to murder her with poison that her entire entourage has come with her from
Mexico
, her servants, Mexican politicians, whoever they be, are in the pay of the French emperor, and they're trying to have her killed.
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50:52
Now, of course,
Napoleon III
, I mean devious though, he maybe there's no interest in poisoning
Carlotta,
and she's lost her mind has completely gone into a world of delusion and paranoia, and she sees
Napoleon III
as literally the devil incarnate the principle of evil upon earth. She calls him. Now, this of course doesn't result in a concordat with the Pope, which were catholic
Mexico
behind, so her mission is fail.
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Tom Holland
51:18
So actually I said Dubois de Saligny was the worst diplomat of all time, but perhaps
Carlotta
has actually picked him.
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Edward Shawcross
51:25
She's not achieved her mission, but I like the way you were focused on that time and even an excellent boss, but it and the deal?
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Tom Holland
51:33
Yes, did it come off?
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Edward Shawcross
51:36
It doesn't she's actually taken into taking care by her Belgian family and put it into the equivalent of isolation, which is the way that people thought that has to deal with these mental problems in those days. And, of course, was very opposite. She never recovers and in fact she never goes back to
Mexico
.
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Tom Holland
51:52
But meanwhile
Maximilian
is stuck in
Mexico
and and and the sphere of his control is starting to shrink and collapse. And so he gets advised, doesn't he? To go to a place called Carretero, is that right?
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Edward Shawcross
52:07
Querétaro
, yes.
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Dominic Sandbrook
52:08
Yes, he's already had one another flirtation with abdication, hasn't he? When he hears about
Carlotta
. And again, people say to him, other people say, "oh don't abdicate, you know, it's better to your
Hapsburg"
, all this sort of stuff. And I think he packed his already think he packed his bags on that occasion.
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Edward Shawcross
52:25
This time. So once again, once he hears the news that
Carlotta
has had suffered this terrible incident and his wife is sick, he results to advocate again. So the second time, but we mean, we should have really emphasized about
Maximilian
, he's indecisive, he procrastinates, he doesn't like if you don't have to make a decision, don't make it always push it.
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Tom Holland
52:41
But he is brave, right? I mean, he is very brave.
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Edward Shawcross
52:44
That comes across absolutely, so he's talked out of it as
Dominic
says, the Conservative allies promise him everything, tens of thousands of men, tens of millions of dollars, once the French have gone, we won't have the stigma of foreign intervention. Just think how we'll be able to defeat the foresters.
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Dominic Sandbrook
52:57
Without any soldiers will be so popular.
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Tom Holland
52:59
But he does have some, doesn't he? And that's why he ends up going to this place
Querétaro
because there are, you know, this is a stronghold of conservatism and.
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Edward Shawcross
53:09
So once the French have left and there's just all kinds of scenes reminiscent of more recent events where refugees following in the wake of the French army and sort of chaos and so on and so forth. And they desperately want
Maximilian
to come with them, he refuses to say I'm going to stay and fight.
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53:24
And that's it, so the plan is to go to a town about 130 miles northwest of
Mexico
City
,
Querétaro
. Now this is an imperial stronghold, their imperialist soldiers, the supporters of
Maximilian
imperialist already there.
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53:38
And what's going to happen is this is the plan as it stands,
Maximilian
will become commander in chief of the army, he would lead a small force out from
Mexico
City
. They will march to the relief of these imperialists. Three hordes of armies are converging on the city, but you defeat them one by one, and then the empire will be gloriously restored after this dramatic victory over the forces of the empire's atheistic liberals.
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53:60
It sounds like a desperate plan, and it is one Instead of the tens of thousands of men, the conservatives managed to scrape together 1500 for
Maximilian
to lead northwards And only $50,000, which is barely enough to pay the wages of the troops that he's marching to
Querétaro
with rather than even, you know, to relieve that force.
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Tom Holland
54:23
And then and then he goes butterfly hunting.
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Edward Shawcross
54:25
Well, this is it. So
Maximilian
has never served in an army, let alone commanded one. He's appointed commander in chief with the idea that, you know, this victory will be his responsibility and therefore demonstrate what a wonderful leader he is
Maximilian
. He's, I guess, what you would have, what one would call a dilettante.
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54:41
Although he's, you know, he's interested in natural science and botany and especially butterflies and sort of fantastic moments so that the territory, his empire has shrunk to the point because while he's prevaricated about "whether I should abdicate" the Juaristas are advancing on all sides, and they're taking towns and cities and taunting the defenders saying, well, your emperor's packed his
Dominic
says, you're emperors.
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55:00
You know, "he's packed up his furniture, he's off, so what are you fighting for?" Plus, they haven't been paid in about a year, either. So it's there's not really much support for him, it's melting away and so that the countryside is held by
Juárez
degree of forces.
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55:14
And so he is constantly under attack on this march. But he's always he's always stopping off the sort of teachable moments about Aztec history that will inspire his troops to look at a rare butterfly that he hasn't catalogued.
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Tom Holland
55:24
This is where it's very
Gabriel Garcia Márquez
would behave.
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Dominic Sandbrook
55:30
You would see some sort of interesting fossil or one of your walks and look at some old churches.
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Tom Holland
55:35
I can tell you, I can tell you, I would have scarfed in his situation. I would absolutely have abdicated.
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Edward Shawcross
55:40
And it's a wonderful, wonderful moment as he's writing letters to his, the director of the Museum Of Natural Science which has opened, and he's a big fan of museums. There's a lot to like with
Maximilian
there, and he's talking about the journey, and he really does focus on the butterflies, and he says, but while the bullets were whistling around me. I noticed the most extraordinary, butterfly.
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Tom Holland
55:59
It's admirable, in a certain way.
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Edward Shawcross
56:01
It is a certain way that he does show absolute cool calm and collected courage under fire, and he does show leadership abilities and charisma, and he does lead this horse safely to
Querétaro
.
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Tom Holland
56:13
But that then turns out to be a kind of because as I understand from your book it's kind of it's surrounded by heights and the, his enemies are able to occupy the heights, and so he's stuck there.
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Edward Shawcross
56:26
Querétaro is the worst place to have a siege surrounded by hills on three sides, open plain to the West, there's a beautiful 18th century aqueduct that brings water and that's very quickly cut the Juaristas used to take the high ground and of course the plan to defeat these armies one by one would require decisive action and
Maximilian
which has accountable worst case, and it doesn't happen.
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Dominic Sandbrook
56:43
But even now he could still escape, right? Because somebody says to him, don't they? At some point, "you know, I've basically got a great plan for you to get away and get out of the town".
Maximilian
says "no, no, no I've invited some local officials. What would they say if they arrived, and I was gone? It would be very disrespectful and discourteous of me to leave".
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Tom Holland
57:00
Which again I think reflects very well on him.
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Edward Shawcross
57:02
Yes, absolutely. I mean, it's much more, manners are much more important than saving one's own life.
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Tom Holland
57:07
But anyway, so he ends up again, you have a fabulous sentence. "The archduke
Ferdinand Maximilian
born at the
Hapsburg
Palace of Schoenbrunn offered his sword to Escovedo a former farm laborer from the harsh Sierras of
Nuevo León
" which again it's kind of that it's fact conjunction of two totally alien worlds, and he gets, he becomes a prisoner. And things take a dark turn for him from that point on.