Monday, Feb 21, 2022 • 49min
Origins
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On April 2nd, 1966, Stan Lee and Jack Kirby debuted Marvel’s first Black super-hero, Black Panther, in the pages of Fantastic Four #52 - at the height of the Civil Rights Movement. In this premiere episode, host Nic Stone will deep dive into the complexities of his early adventures and how writers like Roy Thomas elevated the character beyond what readers had seen in a Marvel comic.
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Nik Stone
John Jennings
Stephanie Williams
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Nik Stone
00:06
What's up, fam. Welcome to The History Of
Marvel
Comics: Black Panther
, my name is Nik Stone and I'm an author, comic fan and Shuri Stan
, but most importantly, I am your beloved host.Share
00:22
For the next six episodes I'll be leading you on a journey through the evolution of
Marvel's
first black superhero, The Black Panther
.Share
00:31
To start, we'll go through
Black Panther's
origin story, his first appearance in Fantastic Four
number 52 and, of course, his time with The Avengers
. So think of this episode as a primer, away for new and old fans to have a solid idea of how T'Challa
came to be and how he's grown since.Share
00:50
But most importantly, we'll dig into why
The Avengers
first black member went through three years without letting any civilians know he was black.Share
00:60
Yep, I mean that.
Share
01:02
He didn't even get to reveal it himself, he was outed to start a race war.
Share
01:08
Wild, right?, but we'll get to that in due time. For right now, let's take a trip back to 1965, a year before the Black Panther's debut.
Share
01:19
In 1965, the
Black Panther
wasn't the Black Panther
, he was the Coal Tiger
.Share
Ben Saunders
01:26
So the
Coal Tiger
was the original name that Stan
and Jack
came up with for his first african superhero with the character that would be introduced in the page of the
Fantastic Four
as the first black superhero in the Marvel
universe.Share
Nik Stone
01:42
Now I'm gonna assume you all know who
Stan Lee
and Jack Kirby
are, but just in case you don't, they're the fathers of the Marvel
universe. However, that voice you just heard is Ben Saunders. He teaches english at the University Of Oregon
and he's been lecturing about the history of comics since 2006.Share
Ben Saunders
02:02
And their knowledge of
Africa
came almost entirely from things like Jungle Adventure stories, Edgar Rice Burroughs
hopes Tarzan
movies.Share
Nik Stone
02:15
A quick note here. Jungle Adventure stories, they were also known as Jungle Comics. It was a very popular section of genre comics that showed super racist portrayals of black people.
Share
02:26
They also often featured a white savior at the forefront, which, yeah, we know how that went. Let's get back to Ben.
Share
Ben Saunders
02:33
What they did was took those genre tropes that they knew and reversed them, played with them. And I think what you see in the
Coal Tiger
conception is the idea sort of halfway to completion. They haven't actually figured out how to flip the script as dramatically as they ultimately ended up doing.Share
02:53
And of course, in the end, the way that they did that was by creating
Wakanda
as this mythologized, technologically advanced, separatist African nation, which could be imagined as somehow reversing every cliche about Africa
that they had seen in those Jungle Adventure stories.Share
Nik Stone
03:16
And luckily for all of us, they reversed the name as well because
Black Panther
has a way better ring to it than Coal Tiger
.Share
03:24
At the same time though, there was a lot going on in 1965 that may have inspired
Stan
and Jack
to make such a radical new world.Share
John Jennings
03:34
There's a lot of social unrest on various fronts, you know, as far as like
Women's Liberation
and the civil rights issues and all of the things, right?, and of course the Vietnam War
is looming.Share
Nik Stone
03:45
That is John Jennings, he's a super talented artist, writer and editor, but most importantly, he studies race and how it's portrayed in various forms of media, especially comics.
Share
John Jennings
03:58
There's a lot of unrest and of course like
America
has never really been good at dealing, and I'm just being really kind about this, has never been really good about dealing with these issues around race and about representation and about equity in those areas.Share
Nik Stone
04:10
So with
America
at it's boiling point, what inspired a bunch of white dudes to debut an African prince to their roster?, because the average comic book reader at this time was probably the exact opposite of that. Let's get back to Ben.Share
Ben Saunders
04:25
The assumption about the readership was that this is for the emotionally immature, straight white male.
Share
04:31
But I think we should nevertheless be very cautious about going along with this widespread image of the audience in the industry, even though it was the industry's own perception of itself in some ways
Share
04:43
Because the problem with just going along with this, is that risks writing other kinds of readers out of history and I think it's really important to remember that even if other kinds of fan have been historically rendered invisible, they were of course there, there has always been female fans, queer fans and fans of color.
Share
Nik Stone
05:06
And
Black Panther's
white fathers, Stan Lee
and Jack Kirby
, they knew that, but they also knew they needed to warm up the assumed straight white male audience first.Share
05:16
So
Marvel
starts including racial diversity and background characters. Now I know that sounds small, but these are the breadcrumbs that would eventually lead to Black Panther's
debut.Share
Ben Saunders
05:27
So the Panther is created, I don't think there's any question about this, in response to shifting cultural awareness around ideas of race, both within the United States and internationally.
Share
Nik Stone
05:41
So here's the moment of truth.
Stan
and Jack
toyle for months on a black character who would be the ruler of a nation, not a caricature, not a stereotype and not a political war cry, but a savvy superhero who happened to be black, because at that time that was a big enough statement to take a risk on.Share
06:00
On April 2nd, 1966 the
Black Panther
arrives on the glossy cover of Fantastic Four
number 52.Share
John Jennings
06:07
His creation, his presence had to be like really, really substantial because he's introduced in like
Fantastic Four
, number 52, 53 or 1966 before the Black Panther Party
starts calling itself that, so you have these like really, really tripped out connections there.Share
Nik Stone
06:23
To be clear, there's no deliberate connection between
Marvel's
Black Panther
and the Black Panther Party
, but it's safe to say that comics first black superhero made just as much of a splash.Share
06:36
Jack Kirby
had a knack for making static images really dynamic, and the Black Panther
was no different. On this cover, he's in this really sleek, all black cat suit in this pounce position and when I say cat suit, I mean a full cat suit, his whole body, including his face, is covered.Share
John Jennings
06:55
And the other thing is that the costume that he wears isn't a costume at all, it's a ceremonial garb that is worn by the protector of
Wakanda
.Share
07:03
He's almost like a shadow, you know, he's, he's all in black, you know, not to be too political about it, but blackness was created to be the shadow of whiteness, right?, and so he is that, but he has agency, even though his face is totally covered you know that that's a black man that is featured as a major character in one of their top tier books.
Share
Nik Stone
07:20
I want you all to remember that too, because that full face mask is going to bite him in the ass eventually.
Share
07:27
But let's cut to the Chase. T'Challa, Prince of
Wakanda,
flies the Fantastic Four
out to Wakanda
in his Fancy jet. However, the thing is not so enthused about this trip, he even calls T'Challa
some refugee from a Tarzan
movie. To be fair though.Share
07:45
Ben Grimm
is supposed to represent a certain section of every man in this story and in some ways he represents some of the readers, cautious, curious and possibly ignorant, but T'Challa
isn't going down without a fight, literally.Share
Ben Saunders
07:60
He's just doing what every new character always does when they're introduced, right?, there's that moment of miss recognition and then there's a fight.
Share
08:07
In the case of the introduction of the
Black Panther
, it's evidence of the way in which race and an awareness of race can change even the most dull cliche of a genre.Share
Nik Stone
08:20
The group is lured into this beautiful utopian techno jungle, thinking they're about to meet this stuffy royal prince, but then they get jumped when they least expected.
Share
08:30
You heard me right,
Black Panther
flew the Fantastic Four
into Wakanda
to whoop their behinds and then he laughs as he's doing it, this is totally my kind of guy.Share
Ben Saunders
08:42
But because the Panther is shown as sort of handily defeating each member of the
Fantastic Four
before he then reveals himself as not actually a villain.Share
08:53
This is a way of establishing the first major black superhero in the Marvel universe, as capable of going toe to doe of standing on equal footing with Marvel's 1st family.
Share
Nik Stone
09:07
That's pretty epic.
Share
John Jennings
09:08
This is really kind of like very comic bookie, melodramatic, drawn out battle and things, but you know, it's really something that this guy was smart enough to beat the Fantastic Four, which at the time is probably like the best selling book. That was pretty significant.
Share
Nik Stone
09:22
Now, since they are the
Fantastic Four
, they do wind up getting the upper hand on T'Challa
with the help of their friend Wyatt Wingfoot
.Share
09:29
Anyone else would take that loss to heart, but not Prince
T'Challa
. He's impressed. This was what he wanted.Share
John Jennings
09:36
He entices
Mister Fantastic
with the technology, right?, because, you know, he's a big nerd, he's like, "oh, where is this coming from? I want to know more", so, like yeah, so he brings him over and he ends up like using them to test himself to see if he's ready to fight his ultimate foe, Ulysses Klaw
.Share
Nik Stone
09:51
Ulysses Klaw
is the son of a Nazi war criminal and an illegal arms dealer. He finds Wakanda
in pursuit of their most precious resource: Vibranium
. In the assault, T'Challa's father, T'Chaka,
is killed and young T'Challa
severely wounds claw by chopping his right arm off as he retreats from the battle.Share
10:10
This is presented as a pretty by the number of superhero origin story, complete with all kinds of melodrama. Before a non white reader, it can hit pretty close to home. I wanted to bring my girl Stephanie Williams on the show, she's a writer, journalist, comic creator and...
Share
Stephanie Williams
10:27
Comic book recogner. I owe that to a friend for that new edition.
Share
Nik Stone
10:32
Oh, I like that, I might have to tuck that one in my pocket. And as a comic book recogner, Stephanie knows a thing or two about something I like to call, the creator consumer collaboration.
Share
10:44
So, you have a person creating a thing and then the person consuming it, obviously brings their own experiences and thoughts and ideas and perspectives to what they're reading.
Share
Stephanie Williams
10:54
We are all familiar with what happens when people come in and try to colonize stuff, right? The social construct of race is so what it is specifically here in
America
, there is just no way for this character just to exist as a black man without any type of caveat, without any type of political type. There's no other way for you to read them because of that.Share
Nik Stone
11:17
So if we're thinking about black readers for whom the
Black Panther
was intended, there's a lot we could take away from his origin story.Share
11:23
Me personally, reading it made me realize that it's possible to have lived without colonization, which I found pretty empowering.
Share
Stephanie Williams
11:31
You're hoping that the consumers latch onto them so they can elevate them. This character can become a legacy because you have consumers that will continue to go back to these stories, word of mouth tell other folks about them, like you should go back and read this thing from 1966, right?
Share
11:47
There there's
Black Panther
stories that I found that I had read before, and I didn't know anything about them because they weren't on someone's list of best Black Panther
stories or whatever, like I found them by reading and now I will go and I'll say, hey, you know, you you miss one.Share
Nik Stone
12:04
He's so captivating that after his debut with
the
Fantastic Four
, the Black Panther
becomes a regular guest star. From 1966 to 1968 he appeared in the pages of Fantastic Four
and The Tales Of Suspense
as the go to guy for all things heroic.Share
12:21
Johnny Storm
needs an airship? Cool, has got it. Need Vibranium
bracelets to defeat Klaw? He's on that too. Psycho-Man
is giving you trouble? The child has got your six.Share
12:31
Captain America
solving a mystery? Here's an airship, homie. Pull up to Wakanda
, he's got all the details.Share
12:37
I'm not making any of this up y'all. This all happens over the course of those two years. But it's not all it seems for our prince.
Share
John Jennings
12:45
I mean, okay, so you talk about a character that is bred to become king eventually, right? I mean, he's a genius, like he's a technological genius. He's a top physical condition and he's like one of the richest men in the world, right?
Share
12:59
So here's what everybody wants to be and he doesn't want to be it totally, right? Which is, I think is a really interesting conundrum like, man, what are you talking about? You're king! It's like, yeah, yeah, but it's not everything, it's cracked up to be right.
Share
Speaker 5
13:10
So it's almost like the grass is always greener, kind of scenario, and I think that yeah, you have to have something, a major character point like that to balance all of the awesomeness that he is.
Share
Nik Stone
13:20
Stan Lee uses this conundrum to put
Black Panther
on the main stage, but not before handing off the baton to the man who would expose T'Challa
to life in America
and to all the messiness that comes with it.Share
Roy Thomas
13:34
My name is
Roy Thomas
.Share
Nik Stone
13:35
That's right, we got one of the O. G writers to talk to us about T'Challa's origins.
Share
Roy Thomas
13:41
I went to work in comics at
DC
in the June of 1965. A couple of weeks later I left there when Stan Lee offering me a job at Marvel
in early July of that year.Share
Nik Stone
13:51
After a year of working alongside stand as an associate editor, Roy was given the assignment of a lifetime:
The Avengers.
And at this point The Avengers
title had been going strong since 1963 and that roster was stacked.Share
14:06
There was
Captain America,
Thor, Iron Man
, Ant-Man
, and The Wasp
. Imagine that being the title you get to write. And guess what your first assignment is: To bring the Black Panther
into the gang.Share
Roy Thomas
14:19
What I liked about
The Avengers
was that at the beginning it had been a an amalgamation of Marvel's
greatest heroes, you know, Black Panther
wasn't a star at that stage, but he was obviously a really good character.Share
Nik Stone
14:31
Not to mention, in the two years between
Black Panther's
first appearance, to when Roy brings him into The Avengers
, the Marvel
universe's continuity was being built out more and more.Share
14:42
I'll explain: In January 1968,
Black Panther
appears in Captain America
number 100 and helps Cap defeat a fake Baron Zemo
.Share
Speaker 5
14:51
Then in Avengers number 51, which debuted in February 1968, an impressed and appreciative
Captain America
gives his blessing for Black Panther
to join The Avengers.
Makes sense.Share
Roy Thomas
15:03
I can't remember whether it was Stan's suggestion or mine, about probably his, to bring the
Black Panther
into the group, you know, I was very happy to do that because I saw him as a character that would add something in several different levels even if he wasn't a, you know, solar star like Iron Man
and Thor work.Share
Nik Stone
15:21
Despite some initial nervousness,
T'Challa
was already pretty willing to leave Wakanda
to do hero duties. What's the worst that could happen? Spoiler alert: it was pretty bad. Here's Stephanie again.Share
Stephanie Williams
15:33
So I feel like for him it was kind of like on a clock with limited time because when he is able to, I guess kind of freely go back and, you know, do a super hearing with
The Avengers
and Fantastic Four, there is nothing going on in Wakanda
. Tt's quiet for the most part.Share
15:51
So, him needing to be there to like latest people or protect them is not necessarily necessary because there's nothing happening, and I feel like that is a moment where
T'Challa
really considered like, yeah, I think I can do both, even if my people are in trouble, like I can go back, take care of that and then go back to The Avengers,
but then we even see that it doesn't matter where he's at, if there's trouble in Wakanda
is gonna find him in America
.Share
Nik Stone
16:20
So Roy took that opportunity to raise the stakes in
America.
Share
16:24
After joining
The Avengers
, T'Challa
is made aware of issues outside of Wakanda
, things like systemic racism, extremism, fearmongering, poverty and Roy was part of that awakening.Share
John Jennings
16:37
The
Black Panther
, he wasn't necessarily part of the background, in fact, quite the opposite. When you look at some of the adventures that they go on, they do focus on him quite a bit and I think you do get a like a, like a build out of his politics a little bit more and about his agencyShare
Nik Stone
16:52
In Avengers number 57, released August 8th 1968, we see him leave
The Avengers
mansion after a hard day of superhero work. He's monologuing about stepping away from his Wakandian life, and while he's lost in thought, he encounters a robbery. Stops the thieves, and then the two black boys who were watching walk by and say "man, we could really use a Black Panther
in our neighborhood". They probably didn't sound like that but let me rock.Share
Roy Thomas
17:20
I just felt like once I got him in there, I thought that, you know, it would be good to have him mixed with the African american community and not just have him hanging around with
The Avengers
all the time.Share
Nik Stone
17:30
Also it's not clear if these kids knew he was black because at this point
T'Challa
is still in a full face mask. What we do know is T'Challa
sees these boys who look like him and realizes he has no real connection to their community.Share
17:44
Before that, he spent his whole life in a whole different world, so when he comes into
America
into New York, I mean that's a different world from Wakanda,
so he found himself sort of adjusting to it and, you know, little by little you know by meeting people by getting involved with community at least on that one level of stopping a crime.Share
18:02
He's the first black
Avenger,
for goodness sake. In universe, this would be cause for a celebration and to make things worse when the police arrive, they're surprised that an Avenger
would actually help with everyday crime.Share
18:15
Here's John Jennings on the matter.
Share
John Jennings
18:17
It's funny because yeah, because
The Avengers
are called The Avengers,
but like who are the avenging?Share
Nik Stone
18:21
While
T'Challa
vows to start being more involved, this moment is never really brought up again.Share
John Jennings
18:26
I mean the superhero is kind of like an extrapolation of the cowboy, you know and basically what happens is you kill the bad guy or you stop the threat, and then you ride off into the sunset and then the next issue. What happens with minority characters or characters that represented under representation? You know.
Share
18:42
You start to see the flaws in that logic, you start to see a lot of these issues are systemic. It's a really interesting conundrum that the Panther is dealt I think in that particular issue, and it shows that they're thinking about these things.
Share
Nik Stone
18:54
And to John's point, the fact that T'Challa walks off into the sunset is a little bit shady. I know, I know the
Black Panther
wasn't originally intended to make these grand political statements about the ills of the world, but...Share
John Jennings
19:09
I think it's a foolish endeavor to not have a character talking about those issues in some way. Regardless of what the fans are thinking, I mean, so this is the thing, this is where like politics and fandom and fantasy kind of collide.
Share
19:20
Yeah, I think you have to do it in some way. My whole thing is like if you're creating characters that stand up for truth and justice and the american way, the real american way, then you should be fighting for everyone.
Share
Nik Stone
19:32
Points made and bars dropped. Home way ain't looking too good in the light.
Share
Stephanie Williams
19:36
So this is what happens when you have a character who has a white creator. Sometimes it happens when you have a character has been created by a black person, but predominantly for characters with white creators, because the base of the character is there and exists. You have kind of like this blank foundation to an extent.
Share
19:56
So little things you get to kind of inject your own personal experiences to, it kind of hurts this character because it's like man, like you know everything but you didn't know this. So like are you really paying attention to the areas that you're in? And then like what does that say about you?
Share
Nik Stone
20:13
Right? You're the smartest guy in the room and this is a surprise to you.
Share
20:18
Something is not adding up here and you still haven't officially told anyone outside of your teammates that you're black. Come on, T'Challa.
Share
Stephanie Williams
20:27
What does that say that you have not realized the difference in the way that black people are treated in this particular country that you're in, because like you know that the only reason why your people are safe is because they are secluded and
Wakanda
doesn't technically exist anywhere, so they only threats that they really have is of folks that know of the existence because they're trying to get Vibranium
or whatever.Share
20:50
And that's not happening every single day. But for black americans, like they're dealing with someone trying to either harm them or these systems that aren't physically there, but like still exist, right? There still there and there's different things that, even you as the
Black Panther
will not be able to solve because you can't dismantle, like, you're not going to be able to dismantle racism.Share
Nik Stone
21:16
And to be clear, dismantling racism isn't even on his radar, but it will be soon. Very soon
Share
Speaker 5
21:24
I just wanted to give a highlight reel of these next few issues. Stephanie says that T'Challa's people are safe because they're secluded. The world doesn't know about
Wakanda
or it's Vibranium
yet.Share
Nik Stone
21:36
On Avengers number 59, Prince
T'Challa
is in full Wakanda
garb at the UN announcing that he's ready to reveal Wakanda
to the world and share its Vibranium,
granted he only wants to share it with peaceful nations. But I think I speak for every Wakandan when I say "Oh, hell no".Share
Stephanie Williams
21:55
He wants to go about life a certain way, but, baby you can't, you're not gonna be able to do that and you can want it all you want, but that's just not gonna be the thing.
Share
Nik Stone
22:08
And then in Avengers number 62 we're in
Wakanda
, and let me tell you, the countrymen are not happy.Share
John Jennings
22:16
He's always thinking about like where he should be. I think that's an interesting part of the character that there's certain certain connections because he spent so much time in the west. You know, he's always feeling disconnected and he's chastised for it a lot too, like "what you doing up here brother?"
Share
Nik Stone
22:31
And guess who makes his grand entrance: Man-Ape, A. K. A. M'Baku. Yeah, I know I need to pause here because I'm sure Man-Ape hit y'all the same way it hit me. That is not a name that ages very well. So from here on out, we're just going to call him from M'Baku.
Share
22:50
Anyway,
T'Challa
defeats M'Baku but not before M'Baku tells him he's sold himself to our white skinned enemies, burn, by working with The Avengers
.Share
John Jennings
23:01
And the other thing too is like how are
The Avengers
being seen, you know, are they looked at as being like these, you know, white saviors that are pushing like a imperialist narrative because it also begs the question who gets to be american, who gets to be wakandian, who gets to be black, you know, it's it's really complex stuff that they're just kind of like just trampling through like a lot of times.Share
Nik Stone
23:23
And by Avengers number 65, the
Black Panther
is gone.Share
23:28
Okay, look, he's not gone, gone. According to
The Avengers
, he's quote in Africa
. I think it's pretty safe to assume that after M'Baku attacked Wakanda
, T'Challa
needed to do some damage control. So he takes a bit of a leave of absence.Share
John Jennings
23:42
Yeah, I think he should go back to
Wakanda
and just take, a take a moment. I was like, I think he just pressed the reset button, he's like, I really, really need to rethink like what I'm doing right here.Share
Nik Stone
23:52
However, he pops back into
The Avengers
in issue number 68, to do what? Send some Vibranium
to The Avengers.
Does homeboy ever learn? Spoiler alert: No, he doesn't. Because our homeboy is hella hard headed, which we get to see firsthand when T'Challa
is up against his biggest threat yet: The Sons Of The Serpent
.Share
24:25
We were talking about
T'Challa
origin story, joining The Avengers
and kind of neglecting his duties back in Wakanda
. But now for the fun stuff.Share
Speaker 7
24:36
So remember at the top when I said no one knew the
Black Panther
was black until he was outed?Share
Stephanie Williams
24:41
Avengers
73 and 74 is T'Challa's reckoning with the fact that "oh wait, so I might not want folks to like judge me based off the color of my skin, however. That does not mean that because I am living my life that way that that works for other folks, especially Black Americans".Share
25:05
Actually 73 and 74 to me was probably some of the best
Black Panther
story wise that I've read.Share
Nik Stone
25:13
Yeah, it's time to get into that.
Share
25:15
So, some backstory on
The Sons Of The Serpent
: They were originally created by Stanley as a racist organization who in Roy's issue, target's black public figures and of course someone named the Black Panther
is enemy number one.Share
25:32
At the top of
Avengers
number 73 were introduced to Dan Dunn,
a racist white inflammatory late night tv host, and his frequent guest Montague Hale, a self righteous and borderline extremist, black political commentator.Share
25:47
These two are battling it out every night on day and show and subsequently stirring the flames of racial tension in the country.
Share
25:54
Was there an inspiration for these two characters, like there was for The Sons Of The Serpents?
Share
Roy Thomas
25:59
They probably were inspired by people I saw on tv, but they would have been again an amalgamation of you know, different hosts, different spokesman and so forth, and they would have been based on the things that I, you know that I saw myself on television or read in either the
New York Times
or New York Magazine
or whatever.Share
Nik Stone
26:17
It is wild to me like rereading this, how similarly that was to stuff that we see now, right? Like there's stuff going on in the world, going on in
America
now and we're seeing the exact same kind of commentary, and dialogue and it was really fascinating seeing it in this comic from years and years and years ago.Share
Roy Thomas
26:38
Yeah, it'd be nice to think that everything moved on, you know far, but sometimes when you keep moving you find out you're traveling in a circle.
Share
Nik Stone
26:45
So we have these two pundit, fish dudes stirring things up as
The Sons Of The Serpent
create their master plan. On top of that, we have one of the first black women of note in Black Panther
story: Monica Lynne.Share
Stephanie Williams
26:59
So during this time period, Monica Lynne is a young singer who actually similar to
T'Challa
, wants nothing to do with being political. She just wants to sing in the same way that he just wants to fight crime.Share
Nik Stone
27:14
Unlike Montague, Monica is not here for all of the race talk, she just wants to do her thing.
Share
John Jennings
27:20
It's hard to actually show a spectrum of experiences, right? And so what's significant about that is that it starts to to disrupt the idea that black people are like a political monolith. And I think that's very interesting that, that happens.
Share
Nik Stone
27:35
Sis really thought she was gonna sing her way out of racial discrimination. Well, the serpents had other plans.
Share
Stephanie Williams
27:42
She comes to realization quicker than him that she is not gonna be able to just do that because regardless of no matter how amazing of a singer that she is, she is still going to have to deal with being a black woman in
America
and sometimes it's dangerous.Share
Nik Stone
27:59
Monica is kidnapped by the serpents and just in the nick of time, the
Black Panther
in a full facemask arrives to save the day. Monica calls for the police, but nobody comes. Then the bad guys are suddenly killed.Share
28:13
This is when the police finally show up and let me tell you, Monica Lynne is pissed. She goes, "what I want to know is, where were the police until the danger was over. I didn't want to dirty your hands to rescue a black girl?", dang Monica.
Share
John Jennings
28:30
It's kind of like politicization of a character that really in some other issues could just be like a throwaway character or like a damsel in distress character, you know, they see enough potential in her that they bring her back as a main character, you know, and it's a really interesting counterpoint to how I feel like black women have played like a major part of the black struggle in
America.
Share
Nik Stone
28:52
And though he doesn't have that exact line of thinking, Roy knew he could do a lot with making
T'Challa
and Monica Lynne foils.Share
Roy Thomas
29:01
You know, it's the time of the combination of both the war protests and racial unrest, which often got kind of mixed up and mixed mashed together because sometimes those two viewpoints and causes might overlap and you know, sometimes they wouldn't, you know, because you have 1,000,000 different people in the movement, millions of millions of different people in the country, you're going to have just as many different great nations of a viewpoint.
Share
Nik Stone
29:26
After this incident, Monica is radicalized and teams up with Montague, while
T'Challa
takes a different approach. As I've mentioned before, T'Challa
hasn't really sat and dealt with race as it operates in the american context, since no one in the Marvel
universe knows he's black outside of The Avengers
in the Fantastic Four
. He's pretty much been able to skate around the consequences of being coded as a black hero.Share
Stephanie Williams
29:51
It's very interesting just thinking of just
Black Panther
and other superheroes in general that are black, like there's just no way for them to not be political because there's no way for us to exist in that way. So why would it be any different for them, especially when these stories are supposed to be and often are reflections of real life.Share
Nik Stone
30:11
However with The Serpents, Montague, Monica and Dunn,
T'Challa
has no choice but to confront things. Even The Avengers
have something to say. When T'Challa
calls Dan Dunn a bigot, Janet Pym, A. K. A. The Wasp
calls Montague uncivil.Share
30:27
Then
T'Challa
comes in talking about both sides.Share
Stephanie Williams
30:30
And, you know what? It kind of works out though, right? Because it doesn't make
T'Challa
come off disingenuous in any kind of way. I think it just shows us through their writing this type of black character through the lens of white creators which there are people that still exist that way, right? That subscribe to these different ways of thinking because being black is not a monolith. But we see with some of the stuff that T'Challa
says.Share
30:59
He sounds like a black person, you would know, you may not agree with them at all, but he does sound like someone you know.
Share
Nik Stone
31:07
So now we have all these takes on the racial divide in
America
leading to one place, Dunn's late night show. The Avengers
watch all of this from their mansion, anticipating a full team battle, but T'Challa
is worried about Monica and the black citizens in the city.Share
31:23
So he stops
The Avengers
and says "those are my people that The Serpents have been beating, killing and I claim my right to take them alone". So The Avengers
are like "Alright son, you got it, go for it", and they give them 24 hours to stop The Serpents.Share
31:39
Later on, when Monica Lynne returns home for the night, she is greeted by the
Black Panther
in his full face mask, he tells her that he's worried for her safety and that she shouldn't return to done show ever again.Share
31:51
But of course Monica is not hearing it, she doesn't care if this dude shows up in a cat suit and it's supposed to be some superhero. Homegirl is gonna fight for her people no matter what. So, to stop Monica from potential danger,
T'Challa
does what any sane person would do.Share
32:09
So John, we mentioned this very interesting moment when
T'Challa
reveals that he's a black man?Share
John Jennings
32:19
He uses the term lime "I'm a soul brother"
Share
Nik Stone
32:19
And yeah, I was like, oh boy, And then, and then you're black, oh my goodness,
Share
32:25
T'Challa
finally reveals his black identity by calling himself a soul brother.Share
32:31
Let's let that sink in for a second.
Share
32:35
So, remember when we mentioned that the full face mask would come into play later in the story?, I've only said it like 9000 trillion times, so hopefully you do remember. Anyway, here is where it comes into play.
Share
32:50
Black Panthers
big introductory issue of Fantastic Fourvnumber
52, originally had not one, but two covers one with the Black Panther
in a full mask and another with a half mask that clearly showed his skin color. Only the full mask cover made it to print though.Share
33:08
So from then on, he is predominantly seen in universe solely in that full mask. There are a few exceptions early on, but his skin color is mostly hidden unless he's with the other
Avengers
.Share
33:20
I'm going to bring our comics professor and curator Ben Saunders back for more on this one.
Share
Ben Saunders
33:25
So there is an unused cover as you mentioned, that could be created that shows the
Panther
in essentially a half musk so that his skin tone is visible, and that was not used, it was redrawn and the costume was redesigned to completely cover the face.Share
33:44
It is very tempting to see that as a moment of caution, possibly even we might with hindsight call it a moment of cowardice where concerns about sales of the book in white supremacists dominated states. Which you know, make no bones about it. that's what we were talking about, right?
Share
34:09
And there are any number of places in the mid 1960s where a visibly black male empowered character on the cover of the book would be something that caused backlash and would hurt sales.
Share
34:25
So keeping that reveal of T'Challa's racial identity to the interior of the book, could have been seen, could be seen as a conservative gesture designed, you know, to not hurt sales too much.
Share
Nik Stone
34:41
Monica asks why he didn't tell anyone, and you know what? I'm gonna let Stephanie fill you all in on this because it's really something.
Share
Stephanie Williams
34:50
He decided to not disclose his race because he wanted to be judged as a man and nothing more.
Share
Nik Stone
34:58
In the same way that Monica just wanted to be a singer, T'Challa just wanted to be a hero. But they learned the hard way that being a black person or any person of color really doesn't allow that privilege. Here's John.
Share
John Jennings
35:14
And I think it's extremely significant that they're thinking about these types of politics, I mean, you know, and I think it would take people totally out of it to be surrounded by this kind of tumultuous societal issues that are happening at the time. This is what happened in our country, right?
Share
35:28
People don't necessarily want to totally escape, they use these stories to kind of figure out what's happening safely. You know, I think speculative fiction gives us a certain amount of distance from a particular type of topic.
Share
35:39
Some people don't want to deal with it at all, but you know, I just can't see having a black character like that and also like a black woman, you know, like Monica Lynne, and I think that these particular, you know, really beautiful moments and stuff in something as supposedly disposable as a comic book, I think it's really poignant and really resonates really well.
Share
35:57
You force people to deal with the fact that the character that you like so much is a black character.
Share
Nik Stone
36:02
And black characters, especially black superheroes have a lot more to deal with than just fighting crime and bad guys. They're fighting systems, stereotypes, bigotry, pretty impressive for a kid's comic, right?
Share
Stephanie Williams
36:17
That's the first time that you have him actually considering what it means to be a black american, what that experience is like and what role he plays in that, and what role he can play in that. So like that to me was the biggest growth.
Share
Nik Stone
36:32
And because Monica is the first person he confides in about this inner conflict he's been having, she becomes more than a romantic interest. She, like John, Stephanie and I, become one of his reckoners, but you know, a fictional one.
Share
36:45
She invests in T'Challa, pushes him to do more, and to think about his actions as a black hero.
Share
Stephanie Williams
36:52
So for him, she represents this shift, because it awakens something in him and makes him realize like, okay, well I guess I can't go through life this way, like I can't just fight crime.
Share
37:07
I actually, there are other matters that, you know, me throwing my fist. Is not going to solve or even me being, you know, the
Brainiac
that I am and being very calculating, it's still not gonna be enough to combat this huge thing that affects both me and her. Doesn't make it fair? No, it absolutely doesn't, but that's just the reality of it.Share
37:31
So, it's really nice to see him reckon with that because, you kno. w like what good is the
Black Panther
if he's just running around as this guy who is just this man. Also it's hilarious that anyone would assume that there's some white guy underneath a Black Panther
costume, like I just that was funny to me.Share
Nik Stone
37:54
Plot twist: Avengers number 74, there is a white man running around in a
Black Panther
costume. Okay, back to T'Challa
, going off to fight The Sons Of The Serpent
.Share
38:06
T'Challa
gets captured by the serpents and suddenly we see this evil Black Panther
ripping and running through the streets, committing crimes against white public figures. When the media starts to suspect that the Black Panther
may actually be a black person, the assumptions about his character, politics and alliances are wild.Share
John Jennings
38:25
The fact that they start to try to criminalize him, even more so, by someone who's technically in like black face, you know, don't just think it's interesting and so what's this thing about constructions of like the angry black man, I thought that was very slick, I don't know how intentional that is, but it was like this is a construct and there's a white dude inside of this angry black man evils black man stereotype, which I found kind of fascinating.
Share
38:47
Because the stereotype is a construct that is projected upon black people or people, you know, but the person who's running the stereotype is the person that created it.
Share
Nik Stone
38:59
Meanwhile,
The Avengers
figure out that The Serpent's plan to start a race war by revealing the identity of the Black Panther
. Yes, the white one, who's actually in blackface, and they're planning to do this on live television.Share
39:14
I know. It's a lot.
The Avengers
find the serpents in a tv studio but the reveal has already started. The leader unmasked Black Panther,
but not. This Black Panther
has green eyes and talks like a really corny blaxploitation character. For the confirmation that he's black is enough to make the media go wild.Share
39:39
When
Black Panther
and The Avengers
finally defeat The Sons Of The Serpent
and unmask them, there's one final twistShare
John Jennings
39:48
At the end of it, you discover that the brother that kind of helps radicalize Monica Lynne is actually in on it, and it kind of reveals the artifice of race.
Share
Nik Stone
39:56
Yup, Montague Hale and Dan Dunn were the masterminds of this whole thing. Trippy.
Share
John Jennings
40:04
Yeah of course, no, we're not trying to start a race war for the race, were trying to make some money and you have marketing campaigns behind it too, that's all the racist propaganda that's, that's to market the product.
Share
40:13
So all these different things around how race functions are exposed really interestingly in these two issues.
Share
40:20
I just found that it was an interesting way to kind of talk about the intersections between race, gender and class, and politics in a very, in some ways symbolic way too, because it's The Serpent, right? To which is the great liar, you know it's The Serpent is the great evil liar in western society, right?
Share
Nik Stone
40:38
Now let's hear how Roy feels about this story.
Share
Roy Thomas
40:41
The main thing that I was happy about with, I remember most people liked it, a couple of people didn't like it, was at the end, it turns out the leaders of
The Sons Of The Serpent
are, there are two of them and one's white and one's black, and that, you know for better or for worse, that was my way of saying that there are good people and bad people on behind almost everything, it wasn't just quite as simple as it might have looked.Share
Nik Stone
41:03
Now that his secret is out,
T'Challa
as we know him is a bit more critical of his place with The Avengers
, he's less invested in the globe trotting and save the galaxy nous of it all, and he really wants to be of and for the people.Share
Stephanie Williams
41:19
You can see there's a little bit of a conflict there because by the end of 74, Monica Lynne tells him that, you know, I'm gonna give up music so that I can pick up his calls, and T'Challa's like "oh well, you know what? I might be joining you. Was like by town".
Share
Nik Stone
41:33
By Avengers number 77, he becomes a Harlem school teacher by the name of Luke Charles, He strangely enjoys this more than being an
Avenger
, which yes, it is a bit of a stretch, you go from being an Avenger
to a school teacher with a very american name, all while being away from the country you're supposed to be ruling, but the alias was in part created to give T'Challa
a deeper understanding of the world around him, both as a black hero and as a member of the black american community.Share
Stephanie Williams
42:06
Unintentionally it mirrors our experiences with being kind of stuck between two, I don't know if I want to say stuck between two worlds, but trying to navigate
America
and the way that we do or just I'll just bring it back to corporate America
if someone black is working there and reading this or in school or whatever, you know, the whole cold switching thing that has existed for a long time.Share
42:29
And T'Challa kind of represents like this actual code switching to a degree because he wants to be a king but also at the same time he wants to be able to live life comfortably the way that he wants to, which is saving folks. That's what he wants, like he wants, he needs a cause that's what he wants to do, and for readers at that time to see this black character, this black man who was rich, he is powerful and he can do all these amazing things and to see him kind of try to play life by his own rules, that had to be, I don't like to them like that had to be revolutionary in a way, right?
Share
43:10
Outside the pages of
Marvel
comics, A. K. A. in the real world, another Black Panther
is taking headlines by storm. We're bringing Roy Thomas
back for this one.Share
Roy Thomas
43:21
All we're seeing is news, reports and things of this sort, you know, I know it kind of you know bothers stand because they felt like he and
Jack
had come up with this fine character and now there were these problems about using it, it wasn't so much that he wouldn't mind using it or Jack
would mind using it.Share
43:36
But the real question was you know what was going to happen in the various places where it went on sale, maybe in the south, but in the north too, you know, people would confuse the two because all of a sudden the word
Black Panther,
you know, had a different connotation that was on tv and in the newspapers, actually the comic book was probably going to look like and it was a copy of the political party, right?Share
Nik Stone
43:54
Even though the
Black Panther Party
came on the scene the same year as Marvel's
Black Panther
superhero, there was no deliberate association between the two.Share
44:04
However, by the 1970s, the
Black Panther Party
was in Turmoil, and at the same time Marvel was still trying to figure out what to do with their Black Panther,
who was in the midst of an identity crisis of his own.Share
Roy Thomas
44:17
So
Stan
decided that, you know, they just had to kind of cool it on the Panther
awhile. He just had to find the right way to utilize him without getting embroiled in politics, because there was no except for the name. You know, there was no of course connection between the two.Share
Nik Stone
44:30
So, in 1971 the
Black Panther
changed his name to the Black Leopard. You would think that after all the strides T'Challa
made with learning about and integrating himself into the black american community, this would have been the perfect moment for him to at least consider the ideas of this group that shared his name. This should have been a chef's kiss moment.Share
44:55
But in all of this, the indecision about being an
Avenger
, omitting his race, shirking his responsibilities as a ruler of a nation, and even changing his name, well, they're kind of in line with his character.Share
45:10
He's just a soul brother trying to figure out who he is and what he wants, and can't we all relate to that?
Share
John Jennings
45:18
Sometimes you have to experience the world to realize that you need to work at home, I think, you know what I'm saying? I think that's the thing, like sometimes you really have to be out and experience things and he's done that, you know, and I think he realizes like, you know what? I have been kind of using the other spaces to kind of like really upend my own responsibilities.
Share
Nik Stone
45:38
From 1966 to 1971, we've seen
T'Challa
go through what basically amounts to a rocky teen, tween really, puberty period. As the social chaos of the 1960's and 70's comes to a head in the real world, T'Challa
is navigating the implications of what it means to be a black man with the power of a prince and also an Avenger
and hero, in his own world and in a different one.Share
John Jennings
46:04
I can see his time in
America
with The Avengers
really, really expanding how he thought about humanity and about like how he fit into it, because you know we are talking about someone who is the king of a an isolationist nationalist space.Share
46:19
I can see his time like making him a very interesting king, let's just say that, that he's, I can see that changing him. And also probably widening that gap between like what he wants as a monarch and what he wants for his country, and what he wants for himself.
Share
Nik Stone
46:32
By 1972,
Marvel
was making some changes of their own. In september Stan Lee became the publisher and his successor, Roy Thomas
, the editor in chief. Roy passed The Avengers
title to writer Steve Englehart, who would change the Black Leopard's name back to Black Panther,
but later write him out of The Avengers
entirely.Share
John Jennings
46:53
He has a responsibility to run a country, you know what I'm saying? Let's just be real about it, you know, he's not just, he's not
Spider-Man
, you know, where his responsibilities, taking care of his aunt.Share
47:02
This dude has got to take care of a nation of folks who are looking to him for leadership, is just like you really need to be here, taking care of business if you're not gonna do it, somebody else is gonna do it, and sometimes it's not gonna be the person who needs to do it.
Share
Nik Stone
47:13
In our next episode of the history of
Marvel
comics: Black Panther
, we're going to talk to the man who brought Black Panther
back to Wakanda
and gave us one of the best villains, the best villain if you ask me, of all time. Stay tuned for our deep dive into Black Panther's
first solo run: Jungle Action.Share
47:35
It was written by the legendary
Don McGregor
and drawn by Marvel's
first black artist: Billy Graham. It might be said that this is when our warrior prince finally becomes a king.Share
47:47
If you want to read more about
Black Panther's
origins, check out the show notes for links to the Fantastic Four
and The Avengers
on Marvel Unlimited.Share
47:58
The History Of
Marvel
Comics: Black Panther
is a co production of Marvel Entertainment
and Sirius XM
.Share
48:07
Black Panther
was created by Stan Lee
and Jack Kirby
. This episode is produced by Alexis Williams, with help from Jasmine Estrada, Zachary Goldberg, M. R. Daniel, Kinsey Clarke, Isabel Robertson, Kyrie Rush and Ride Dorsey. The creative producer is Harry Go.Share
48:26
The development manager is Brad Barton, the production manager is Larissa Rosen and the consulting editor is C. C. Pascal.
Share
48:34
The fact checker is Natalie Meade. This episode was mixed by Twin McCullum and Mathias Winter, and the theme music is written and performed by Black Violin.
Share
48:44
The executive producers are Jill Do Baf and Stephen Wacker. Special thanks to Dan Buckley, Daniel Fink, Ricky Purdon, Joe Cassata, Ron Richards and Sarah Amos.
Share
48:55
Listen anytime with new
Marvel
episodes releasing weekly, here at first exclusively by subscribing to Marvel
Podcasts Unlimited, on Apple Podcasts
or on the S. X. M. app, and coming soon everywhere.Share
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Nik Stone
Ben Saunders
John Jennings
Stephanie Williams
Roy Thomas