Wednesday, Feb 9, 2022 • 28min
A Movement to Fight Misinformation... With Misinformation
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Birds Aren’t Real, a conspiracy theory with an apparently absurd premise, has become surprisingly popular in the past few years.
But its followers were in on the joke: The movement’s aim was to poke fun at misinformation … by creating misinformation.
Has it been successful?
Guest: Taylor Lorenz, a former technology reporter for The New York Times.
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Speakers
(3)
Taylor Lorenz
Peter McIndoe
Annie Correal
Transcript
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Break
Annie Correal
00:31
From the New York Times, I'm Annie Correal. This is The Daily.
Share
00:37
A new movement is underway to confront the growing threat of misinformation by creating misinformation. Today: the improbable story of the group behind that movement,
Birds Aren't Real
. I spoke with my colleague Taylor Lorenz
. It's Wednesday February 9th.Share
01:10
Hi, Taylor, how are you?
Share
Taylor Lorenz
01:12
Hi, I'm good.
Share
Annie Correal
01:13
So, when you published this article back in December on
Birds Aren't Real
, it was probably the first time that a lot of people had ever heard of this "conspiracy". It certainly was the first time I had heard of it. So, at a very basic level, what is Birds Aren't Real
?Share
Taylor Lorenz
01:32
Birds Aren't Real
is a fake conspiracy movement, mostly supported by young people online that purports that birds are not real but were actually replaced by government drones back in the 1970s. In the conspiracy lore, every bird is actually a surveillance tool by the State.Share
Annie Correal
01:51
That's pretty funny.
Share
Taylor Lorenz
01:52
Yeah, it's a parody conspiracy. It's almost a satire social movement. People know that this is not real.
Share
Annie Correal
01:59
Got it. So then, why did you get interested in covering this? I mean, things do come and go a lot on the internet, and it sounds like no one really believes in this. So why in your mind was this fake conspiracy worth reporting on?
Share
Taylor Lorenz
02:13
So, as an internet culture writer, I'm constantly keeping an eye on new trends and they do come and go. But this one really had staying power and it seemed to speak to something deep within the psyche of gen Z. I just noticed that the followers were very young and very dedicated and their movement was manifesting increasingly in the real world.
Share
02:34
What stuck out to me was this huge protests that they organized outside
Twitter's
headquarters in San Francisco last November to protest the bird logo.Share
02:56
This is about government spying on all of us, taking away our freedoms our privacy...
Share
Taylor Lorenz
03:02
And I was like: oh my God, there's so many of them, and they were screaming with megaphones.
Share
03:16
There's also been dozens of rallies on college campuses across the country in the past year. It just sort of started to enter into mainstream youth culture in a way that it hadn't in years prior.
Share
03:33
So I started to think I've got to get to the bottom of how this started and why it seems to resonate so deeply with gen Z. The problem is that the leader of
Birds Aren't Real
is a bit of a troll.Share
Peter McIndoe
03:47
I consider myself to be an average American. I wake up in the morning, wash my car and I have an avid disbelief in avian beings.
Share
Taylor Lorenz
03:56
He would give these interviews where he's in character and fully embodying this conspiracy with a totally straight face.
Share
04:03
So how did you become aware of it? What is the message of the movement?
Share
Peter McIndoe
04:07
The message of the movement is essentially to spread awareness that from 1959 through 2001, the government mercilessly genocided over 12 billion birds and simultaneously replaced them with surveillance drones in disguise that every day.
Share
Taylor Lorenz
04:25
So I thought: okay, how am I going to get to the bottom of
Birds Aren't Real
if the founder is playing this character all the time? But after years of covering internet and youth culture and having so many sources in this world, I finally got in touch with him. I talked to him off the record and then finally he agreed to go on the record out of character as himself.Share
04:46
Is it's still recording?
Share
Taylor Lorenz
04:47
Oh yeah, it is.
Share
Peter McIndoe
04:48
Oh yes, we are, we are still running. Okay awesome.
Share
Taylor Lorenz
04:51
So, can I ask, how do you feel recorded as yourself?
Share
Peter McIndoe
04:55
It feels really vulnerable, honestly.
Share
Taylor Lorenz
04:58
HIs name is Peter McIndoe and he's a 23-year-old college dropout, and in talking to him, it turns out that his background actually has a lot to do with how
Birds Aren't Real
got started.Share
Peter McIndoe
05:09
I just remember basically growing up feeling like we were these outsiders in the world.
Share
Taylor Lorenz
05:17
He grew up in a pretty conservative and religious community with seven siblings outside
Cincinnati
, and then he moved to rural Arkansas
.Share
Peter McIndoe
05:24
Because my dad was going to go work in ministry.
Share
Taylor Lorenz
05:27
He was homeschooled.
Share
Peter McIndoe
05:29
I remember being told that a big reason we were being homeschooled was to protect us from these kind of massive brainwashing schemes that were in place by the government. So evolution, for instance, or homosexuality, these concepts are part of this grander government scheme to like corrupt the soul of the nation. So there's like...
Share
Taylor Lorenz
05:49
But he said that from a young age, he started to realize he was a little bit different from the rest of his community. So, for instance, he told me a story about one time when he said that he didn't believe in God.
Share
Peter McIndoe
06:00
I was 10 years old and I told my pastor at church, the youth group pastor, that I was the kind of Christian who went to church but didn't believe in God, 'cause I was so young I didn't even realize that that wasn't even a Christian. Um, and I was told, I was possessed with a demon, which is like crazy.
Share
Taylor Lorenz
06:19
And was told the devil had gotten a hold of him essentially.
Share
Annie Correal
06:22
Oh, wow.
Share
Taylor Lorenz
06:23
Yeah, he's a black sheep.
Share
Peter McIndoe
06:26
And so, starting at 10 years old, it's kind of like exiled in some different ways from these home school communities. It was very much the problem. Like, in home school homecoming for instance, they voted people certain things for the year. Like, you know, you're gonna be the most successful, I was voted most likely to go to jail. Which led to just like an entire childhood of, I guess you could call it ideological loneliness.
Share
Taylor Lorenz
06:56
That must have been so hard. I mean, where did you turn when you felt that loneliness?
Share
Speaker 6
07:00
Yeah, I'll tell people that I was like raised by the internet.
Share
Taylor Lorenz
07:04
So he increasingly went and turned to the internet.
Share
Peter McIndoe
07:07
And ended up just like getting on Youtube and Reddit and these other things, and then just searching things on my own, and realizing that the world did not think like this community that I was in... things.
Share
Taylor Lorenz
07:21
It was kind of those places that let him see the outside world and helped him gain more perspective on the situation that he was in.
Share
Annie Correal
07:30
Which is interesting, because I think we often think about conspiratorial thinking thriving on the internet, and it does. But for Peter, it's actually his real life that feels dominated by conspiracy, and the internet, that feels like real life.
Share
Taylor Lorenz
07:44
Yeah, exactly. So from Peter's point of view, he couldn't get away from home school fast enough to leave for college, which he finally did in 2016 when he ended up at the University of Arkansas in
Fayetteville.
Share
Peter McIndoe
07:57
And that's where I was really able to break away and start kind of my own life.
Share
Taylor Lorenz
08:02
And so tell me about that day, that first day when
Birds Aren't Real
started.Share
Peter McIndoe
08:08
So I was just visiting
Memphis
for like 24 hours, and was in a really weird state of mind. I just like gotten cheated on by my girlfriend and was really upset. So I went to Memphis
and there was a rally happening, like all these people with signs.Share
Taylor Lorenz
08:26
At one point, he goes to visit a friend in
Memphis
, in 2017. It's January right after Trump was elected and there's a huge women's march downtown.Share
Peter McIndoe
08:36
Yeah, I was just looking down and noticed there were like counterprotesters there too.
Share
Taylor Lorenz
08:39
Along with that women's march there was also counter protesters. So, pro-Trump protesters shouting at the Women's March.
Share
Peter McIndoe
08:47
Well there were just like... arguments forming, but they were clearly, it's like body language type stuff like, you could tell there were problems.
Share
Taylor Lorenz
08:52
So he's watching all of this chaos unfold in front of him and just the tension in the air.
Share
Peter McIndoe
08:59
I thought about how funny a skit would be if someone had a sign at a rally that had nothing to do with the rally. Thinking of like an archetype of a character that would be just as energetically representing his beliefs, but they just meant nothing. Like it just meant pointing something absurd.
Share
09:14
And so, ended up finding a poster on a wall for like an event that's already passed. And the back of the poster was all just like white. And so took the poster off the wall.
Share
Taylor Lorenz
09:24
And he decides to rip a poster off the street and right.
Share
Peter McIndoe
09:29
And just writing the three most random words I could think of which were
Birds Aren't Real
.Share
Taylor Lorenz
09:34
Birds Aren't Real
Share
Peter McIndoe
09:36
And they didn't mean anything at the time, it was just three random words. Then I picked up the sign and started marching around with the people.
Share
Taylor Lorenz
09:45
And then he joined the counterprotests to the women's march and started chanting
Birds Aren't Real
and holding up his sign.Share
Peter McIndoe
09:52
So as they marched around, people would ask me like: what does that mean? And I had to just kind of come up with something on the spot. And so I didn't even really think about it too hard. I just started talking about how I was a part of a movement that had been around for 50 years and that, you know, were telling people that every bird in the sky is a government surveillance drone.
Share
10:12
I think I just watched like an
Edward Snowden
documentary or something. So it was like: I had assumed this alternate identity that day and kind of unintentionally ended up being this person very similar to the people I grew up around. And so...Share
Taylor Lorenz
10:26
And it wasn't really intended to be anything but a woman had actually been filming him that day, unbeknownst to him, and she put that video on
Facebook.
Share
Peter McIndoe
10:36
There is a pandemic happening! Birds are a myth, they're an illusion, they're a lie! Wake up America!
Share
10:43
That clip ended up going a lot of places.
Share
10:46
Pigeons, not real. And from there it just kind of blew up in
Memphis
.Share
Taylor Lorenz
10:53
It went wild and started to get lots of attention in the
Memphis
area, and it became this kind of like homegrown joke.Share
Peter McIndoe
11:02
People started writing it on chalkboards, they started like graffiting it on walls downtown, people started like chanting at like high school football games. This idea just took a life of its own through this video.
Share
Taylor Lorenz
11:15
And as this is happening, Peter is back at school in
Arkansas
.Share
Peter McIndoe
11:19
So I was sitting in
Fayetteville
going to college, kind of watching this happen, and was just kind of fascinated by it. There was so much work.Share
Taylor Lorenz
11:27
He thinks it's hilarious, so he decides to lean into it.
Share
Speaker 6
11:31
So I ended up making an Instagram account for it, to basically be the official hub.
Share
Taylor Lorenz
11:35
He sets up social media accounts for
Birds Aren't Real.
Share
Peter McIndoe
11:39
Put in the bio that we've been around for 50 years, and then just started embodying that same character that was made that day, and so...
Share
Taylor Lorenz
11:47
And he begins posting just the most ridiculous things. So, for example, he posted a picture of a seagull and wrote in all caps: WARNING. STAY AWAY FROM SEAGULLS. THEY HAVE JUST BEEN GIVEN A FIRMWARE BY THE GOVERNMENT THAT GIVES THEM THE ABILITY TO STEAL YOUR CREDIT CARD INFORMATION AND SOCIAL SECURITY INFORMATION BY JUST LOOKING AT YOU. LEAVE THE BEACHES NOW.
Share
Speaker 6
12:12
And so, as time went on, it started spreading beyond
Memphis
.Share
Taylor Lorenz
12:16
And these posts start gaining traction all over the country. Peter gets together with some friends. They start posting videos where he's in character and building out the lore of
Birds Aren't Real
even more.Share
Peter McIndoe
12:29
Welcome to bird history.
Share
Taylor Lorenz
12:31
I remember seeing these on my feed.
Share
Peter McIndoe
12:34
It all began In 1946, when government accountability was at its lowest, after a rampant rise of nationalists. Harry Truman implemented the bird drone initiative in an effort to prevent another World War from happening.
Share
Taylor Lorenz
12:46
He reveals how the government has made it appear that birds are real.
Share
Peter McIndoe
12:50
Government pipes are installed under every chicken nest in the country. They work like suck tubes.
Share
12:55
Turkey meat along with all other bird meat is 100% synthetically developed in labs designed...
Share
13:02
But Bill, how will they keep their batteries charged? Easy. There's got to be a pie. We'll just put poles up in every city all across the country. Will string wires between them. All they gotta do is land.
Share
Taylor Lorenz
13:15
So Peter and his friends are really leaning in.
Share
Peter McIndoe
13:21
As always, stay woke, patriots.
Birds Aren't Real
.Share
Taylor Lorenz
13:26
And then they start producing more and more elaborate videos.
Share
Peter McIndoe
13:29
I know we talked off camera some, but just for our viewers who don't know much about you. Can you give us some on your background?
Share
13:37
I was doing security for the CIA. I was in DC.
Share
Taylor Lorenz
13:41
And at one point he hired an actor to portray a former
CIA
agent.Share
13:46
And as while I was there that, well, I saw some things that I... I really wish I hadn't seen.
Share
Peter McIndoe
13:54
Are you referring to bird drone surveillance?
Share
13:58
Yeah.
Share
Taylor Lorenz
13:60
Who confessed to working on bird drone surveillance.
Share
Annie Correal
14:02
Oh my God.
Share
Taylor Lorenz
14:03
Yeah.
Share
14:04
They used poison gas dropped from airplanes.
Share
Taylor Lorenz
14:08
And Peter starts amassing a real following and fan base. Thousands of people are watching and sharing all of his videos and posts, it becomes this viral phenomenon. But beyond engaging on social media, people actually want to join in.
Share
Peter McIndoe
14:23
People started wanting to represent it, asking for shirts, asking for stickers, and so we made posters and flyers to get the word out further.
Share
Taylor Lorenz
14:31
Peter and his friends sell
Birds Aren't Real
merchandise. So t-shirts, sweatshirts, hats, stickers. They have pictures of birds and words that say things like: birdwatching goes both ways, or the slogan "if it flies, it lies". And in 2018 he dropped out of college to do this full time.Share
14:52
His fans became more like followers of the movement. And that movement became known as the Bird Brigade. The movement goes from hundreds of people to thousands of people to tens of thousands of people to hundreds of thousands of people. They even formed chapters on college campuses across the country, and they host meet ups, they wear their
Birds Aren't Real
merchandise to football games and they just kind of hang out. It's almost like a social club.Share
15:19
And over the last year or so, the Bird Brigade has really begun to mobilize for street protests. Things like that silly twitter rally that I mentioned, but also getting involved with more serious issues.
Share
Annie Correal
15:33
What kind of serious issues?
Share
Taylor Lorenz
15:35
Well, Peter told me that the Bird Brigade has started to actively show up at protests that have nothing to do with birds at all. He described a scene last year at the
University of Cincinnati
where an anti-abortion protest was taking place.Share
Peter McIndoe
15:47
There was a group of anti-abortion activists that came out in full force shortly after the Texas abortion ban. And we're walking around with images of like mutilated babies and like it was just very violent.
Share
Speaker 7
16:04
The Bird Brigade chapter at the university was watching this happen and decided to get involved.
Share
Peter McIndoe
16:08
They went and stood next to the anti-abortion people, and basically held a mirror up to the absurdity and started chancing
Birds Aren't Real
, which ultimately, shortly, turned the whole situation into a Birds Aren't Real
rally, and we just got sent videos.Share
Taylor Lorenz
16:25
They ended up kind of taking over the anti-abortion protest.
Share
Peter McIndoe
16:29
There was just sort of this like cacophony of comedy and and absurdism that seemed to diffuse the anti-abortion people, and ultimately they had to just walk away because they couldn't even be heard.
Share
Speaker 6
16:43
So they went into the situation that was intense, confrontational and non aggressively defused the harm that was being done through a comedy, which is really interesting. I think
Birds Aren't Real
kind of like accidentally invented a new form of counter protesting.Share
Annie Correal
17:03
We'll be right back.
Share
Break
Annie Correal
18:51
So Taylor, it's clear that
Birds Aren't Real
has become something much bigger than just a funny internet joke. It's actually mobilizing its followers to go out onto the street. But I guess I'm wondering why, why does Peter think that so many young people have found it so compelling?Share
Taylor Lorenz
19:07
Well, first off, I do think that some people just find it funny and entertaining. But in talking with Peter, I also think that there's something more going on here that has a lot to do with the world that gen Z has come up in.
Share
19:19
Why do you think people are drawn to it? Tell me what you think, you know what, what about
Birds Aren't Real
appeals to people.Share
Peter McIndoe
19:25
Yeah, it's been so fascinating figuring that out, because like people will come to these rallies in the hundreds, and I think that in some ways it almost operates as like a safe space for people.
Share
19:38
I don't know, I feel like every day I wake up and open my phone, I'm just seeing chaos. I think just kind of growing up alongside the internet just gen Z or anyone my age has just kind of like grown up alongside it the whole time, and with that there's no real rules as a society of how to deal with something like the internet.
Share
Speaker 6
19:59
So I think with that just comes like all the madness is in our face at once and I think a lot of people feel the madness and don't really have a way to express it.
Share
Taylor Lorenz
20:08
And so
Birds Aren't Real
, this satirical art project, provides a way for them to understand what feels like a world gone mad.Share
Peter McIndoe
20:16
Okay, this might not be a good metaphor, but I feel like
Birds Aren't Real
is was almost like an igloo in a snowstorm, if that makes sense. It's kind of a place where people can kind of make shelter out of the same type of material that's causing the chaos, given that people can take misinformation and use it as a place to safely process misinformation.Share
Speaker 6
20:40
I think comedy is a very disarming form of communication, and it allows people to come together and laugh at these things that in everyday life are terrifying. There's something about laughing at these things that kind of breaks the illusion of the monster.
Share
Taylor Lorenz
20:60
And so I think young people have kind of coalesced around it because it's a way to kind of fight and poke fun at the conspiracy takeover of the world at the same time.
Share
Peter McIndoe
21:12
It feels like a mirror. Even just from the first day that it started, it was just kind of a mirror to what everybody was feeling. Then, I think it still operates in a similar way and yeah, I think that that reflection can be used, you know, for coping and therapeutic purposes, just through the satire and through kind of these like rallies that we hold.
Share
21:33
You know, 'cause it's not really about birds. You know, really nothing that we like, I really don't think about birds in my life, think about this stuff, you know.
Share
Taylor Lorenz
21:41
And it's a way for them to feel less alone. A lot of young supporters who I interviewed as well talked about just feeling alone in their communities. A lot of these kids have been a remote school for over a year, they're feeling completely isolated. And ironically when people feel that way, they often turn to real conspiracy movements, but
Birds Aren't Real
has kind of allowed teenagers to kind of find meaning and connect in this way through this fake conspiracy.Share
Peter McIndoe
22:12
I think that there's just kind of I think conspiracy. I guess in recent years I've come to look at it just like a real like symptom of a greater sickness, that a society that is void of meaning for a lot of people. And is in a lot of ways just people reaching desperately for any community.
Share
22:33
Because even through role playing this character myself, I feel like I've come to understand the communities that I grew up in better. Like, really trying to get into the mind of this character, I feel like it's even helped me start to figure out like what's actually going on there, you know?
Share
Taylor Lorenz
22:47
And it's also led Peter to think differently about his own upbringing and about how easily conspiratorial thinking can take hold, because it serves this real function for people.
Share
Peter McIndoe
22:58
Just like people join birds are real for community, I think people will fall victim to conspiracy mindset because it kind of shifts who they are in their minds as the systems are kind of failing and a lot of people feel like they're the victims in this tragic story of themselves as the main character.
Share
Speaker 6
23:18
I don't feel purpose, I don't have identity, I don't have people who love me, why? It's because of the deep state, you know? Or it's because of these massive plots and plans, and I think that by becoming this conspiracy theorist or, you know, getting into that world, you reposition yourself in the mind from the victim to the hero. I think a lot of it comes down to purpose and identity.
Share
Taylor Lorenz
23:38
He realizes that the real conspiracies that are flourishing on the internet like Q-Anon and others allow people who believe in them to feel like they have this agency over their lives.
Share
Peter McIndoe
23:50
So, I mean it took me a while, but now I just feel a lot of empathy, honestly, for some parts of it. There's some parts that just can't be rationalized or that I don't even think are healthy to feel over empathy for, stuff like racism or actual homophobia. I have friends who were sent to conversion camps, you know, when they were like in 8th grade.
Share
24:11
But I think that with generally people that you know, are on the forums on with Q all day, like yes, I feel empathy hardcore for those people.
Share
Annie Correal
24:25
I'm reminded that he said he felt a lot of ideological loneliness growing up, and as you said, that can drive people to actual conspiracies. So it strikes me that that loneliness could have led Peter down a very different path when he went to the internet looking for a sense of belonging, right?
Share
Taylor Lorenz
24:43
I do think it could have led him to a very dark place, and the larger concern here is that this kind of loneliness and the sheer amount of misinformation on these online platforms is actually driving unprecedented numbers of people towards conspiratorial thinking. And it's not just Peter that could have gone down this darker path.
Share
Annie Correal
25:05
What do you mean?
Share
Taylor Lorenz
25:05
A lot of people who I talked to, who joined the
Birds Aren't Real
movement have similar backgrounds to Peter's. They grew up feeling disconnected from their own family members or communities who fell victim to this type of conspiratorial thinking. So, I mean, who knows where they could have found themselves on the internet? But what we do know is that they ended up here, in a place that's not dark.Share
25:28
They've collectively used the internet to kind of take this conspiratorial thinking or desire for community and build something completely different and new. The point of this movement is to kind of critique this culture that we've all found ourselves in to skewer it and also just to kind of laugh at all of it.
Share
Annie Correal
25:46
But Taylor, our colleagues have reported quite a bit on how some things that start off as memes or jokes on the internet have, on occasion, morphed into something quite a bit darker and even lead to violence. Does Peter worry at all that his idea to mock misinformation with misinformation could backfire if people don't get the joke and actually start to think that
Birds Aren't Real
?Share
Taylor Lorenz
26:10
Well, I think that's part of the reason he decided to break character and talk to me on the record. I think that the movement was reaching this critical mass where he started to kind of realized that it was getting bigger than him, and he started to worry.
Share
26:26
Peter's biggest fear is that anybody takes him too seriously, and he didn't want to attract any actual conspiracy theorists, and he wanted something that he could point to that was on the record to show people so that they understood. And so I know this is something that he thinks about deeply.
Share
26:47
But he is also not breaking character online. Even after we published our article, he went on Instagram and Twitter saying that
The New York Times
is in cahoots with the government and this is all a pro-bird propaganda campaign and his followers were eating it up. They were like: yes, Peter, Birds Aren't Real
, I can't believe this happened to you. They absolutely loved it.Share
Peter McIndoe
27:12
You know, gen Z is full of some amazing men, women and children that...
Share
27:17
And Peter has continued to troll local news, but it's more than just gen Z is falling for conspiracy theories. Why?
Share
Peter McIndoe
27:25
Oh my God, I'm so nervous, I'm so sorry.
Share
27:31
He even pretended to choke on his coffee in one interview recently.
Share
27:34
I think he was choking on his coffee. It's not easy to be on TV for some people, you know, gets them nervous and I just hope so...
Share
Taylor Lorenz
27:42
The satire is very much alive and well.
Share
Annie Correal
27:45
Well, it sounds like he's gonna have a lot to work with when this episode airs.
Share
Taylor Lorenz
27:51
Yeah, exactly.
Share
Annie Correal
27:53
Well, thank you Taylor, so much.
Share
Taylor Lorenz
27:59
Thank you so much for having me.
Share
Annie Correal
28:10
We'll be right back.
Share
Break
Annie Correal
28:46
Here's what else you need to know today. On Tuesday, in its latest act of aggression, the Russian government dispatched six large landing ships capable of carrying thousands of troops to the waters off
Ukraine
. The move is raising the possibility that Russia,
which has already surrounded Ukraine
on three sides with more than 100,000 soldiers, could now invade it from the sea as well as from land.Share
29:15
And three more states
Connecticut
Oregon
and Virginia
are moving to end mask mandates inside schools, joining New Jersey
and Delaware which announced plans to end their mask requirement on Monday. The changes are in defiance of CDC
guidance, which still recommends universal masking inside schools, a message White House press secretary Jen Psaki
reaffirmed on Tuesday, during a news conference.Share
29:46
So, when are we going to hear from the
CDC
about updating the guidance masks?Share
29:50
You'll have to ask the
CDC
. The CDC
moves at the pace of data and science.Share
Annie Correal
29:55
Meanwhile, New York plans to drop its stringent indoor mask mandate, ending a requirement that businesses ask customers for proof of full vaccination or require mask wearing at all times. But the change does not affect the mask mandate at New York schools.
Share
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