Friday, Mar 11, 2022 • 1h, 12min
75 - The Hi-Fi Murders
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Simon Whistler
Transcript
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Simon Whistler
00:00
Hello everybody. Welcome back to another brand new episode of The Casual Criminalist. As always, hello there, I'm your host, Simon. Today's script has been written by David.
Share
00:08
If you're new here, what happens is I am written a script by one of our fantastic writers, today, David, and I've never read it before. I have no idea what this is about. We're going to explore the topic together and really just see what happens.
Share
00:21
It's called
"The Hi-Fi Murders"
, which doesn't give much away other than the fact that some sort of Hi-Fi is going to be involved. That's all I know. Let's get into it.Share
00:31
Oh, if you're enjoying this show, I mean in general, why not leave it a review. That'd be awesome.
Share
00:37
This episode comes as a request from multiple people. Hold your hats. Requests happen for a reason. If you would like to make a request for a subject, please reach out to us in the comments, on Twitter or in a podcast review, chances are I'll see it.
Share
00:49
Yeah. David, I often see David in the comments and on Twitter. Looking at you people hitting him up. I can't remember his Twitter handle, which is terrible. But if you find me on Twitter, I definitely follow him and I follow like 10 people or something, so you can probably find him.
Share
01:03
Yeah, don't hit me up with suggestions. I might not read them, but David does because he's a better person than me.
Share
01:15
It's also worth pointing out that lately I've interviewed a fair few witnesses and perpetrators for various upcoming scripts.
Share
01:22
Oh my God, yes, yes. There's a couple of scripts that I'm really looking forward to getting to, because David has been like putting his journalism hat on. It's pretty cool.
Share
01:32
These people have given me firsthand accounts in order to elevate the material with unique detail that you won't find anywhere else. If you feel that you have firsthand knowledge of a case that would make for a good episode of the casual criminalist, feel free to reach out.
Share
01:44
This goes for both witnesses and perpetrators, though, with the latter group, I reserve the right to run away, screaming all the way to the police station.
Share
01:50
Yeah, the perpetrator, I know who this is, and I'm like, yo, this isn't some Pedro Lopez motherf-er, this is, it's different to that. It's a good story and like I said, I'm pretty excited to get that episode out. Make sure you're subscribed so you see it. See what I did there. I'm a good
YouTube
factboy. And now, without further ado, once more into the darkness.Share
02:11
The stench of a target.
Share
02:17
It is April the 22nd, 1974. The town is
Ogden
Utah
, just 40 miles or 64 kilometers north of Salt Lake City
. Ogden
sits at the foot of the beautiful Wasatch Mountains
and just astride the breathtaking Great Salt Lake
.Share
02:34
Combined with a temperate climate, all told
Ogden
is a very picturesque part of the world to live in. In 1974 Ogden
was still a railway hub for much of the country's public transport network and movement of manufactured goods. Hence the motto adopted by the Chamber Of Commerce: "You can't get anywhere without coming to Ogden
. "Share
02:52
I've been to
Salt Lake City,
not, I don't know where, where is this? 40 miles north, close to Salt Lake City
. I was there for like half a day on a layover and I was in a taxi and it was my first experience with the American verbalism or way of saying like. I know this is some specific parts of America
, but whenever they say something sarcastic, they'll have to finish it off by saying "not", which like struck me as quite strange.Share
03:19
So I'd be like, yeah, yeah, yeah, the weather is really great today "not! "And I'd be like, why don't you just say it's sarcastic. Like in the
UK
we'd just be like, "yeah, the weather's great today! "and everyone knows that we're being sarcastic.Share
03:29
Whereas it
Salt Lake
, this guy, like, and he was so sarcastic, but it was funny how often he was saying "not". Like he'd just be chatting to me and be like, "yeah, not! ", and I'm like, "okay, I knew you were joking, it's pouring with rain". Fascinating story Simon, carry on.Share
03:44
In 1974
Ogden
was still a railway hub for much of the country's public transport network and movement of manufactured goods. Hence the motto adopted by the Chamber Of Commerce: "You can't get anywhere without coming to Ogden
. "Share
03:55
The town was also, to use an adjective Simon coined in an earlier episode: "quite
Mormonny"
. In 1972 just two years prior to our story -Share
04:04
I like that. I know I'm laughing at my own joke, but I like the word
"Mormonny"
Share
04:08
- prior to our story, the
Church Of Jesus Christ Latter Day Saints
completed work on the Ogden
temple. A four story building with golden windows and a spire that could be seen from all over town. Unlike most Mormon
temples, it was quite a monstrosity of late 1960s and'70s modern architecture, which in my opinion was an architectural dark age. It looked like a giant McDonald's.Share
04:30
Oh my God, yeah. 1960s architecture in the
UK
at least was f-ing horrible. You see like all these post-war tower blocks and stuff and it's just like, oh my God, why? Why did we? I know why, because it's like. it was after the war and the economy was a bit sh-t so it's like we need to build houses for lots of people and so just build lots sh-t houses and yeah, yeah, so large parts of the UK
just look horrible.Share
04:55
The temple was redone in 2014 with a much more aesthetically pleasing classical exterior. The temple serviced tens of thousands of parishioners who in 1974 amounted to pretty much the entire town.
Share
05:06
Ogden
also had a significant Military
presence. A defence depot sat in the middle of town. To the south of Ogden
was the Hill Air Force Base
and stationed there were the perpetrators of today's senseless and brutal slaughter.Share
05:19
On the evening of April the 22nd the Hi-Fi shop in downtown
Ogden
was staffed by two people, Sherry Ansley and Stanley Walker.Share
05:27
In the 1970s, one couldn't just play music on one's phone and get high fidelity sound from one's stunningly well crafted and cost effective Raycon earbuds. This is my way of apology to Lord Ray of House J for a previous episode.
Share
05:40
I hope this episode isn't sponsored by Raycon. Oh, instead, in order to play music- I know they do sponsor. I don't know if they sponsor this show.
Share
05:51
Instead, in order to play musical records with High Fidelity sound one needed to purchase a bunch of highly expensive and bulky equipment, which would take up a quarter of your living room. As such a shop full of this equipment would make for quite the lucrative target for a heist and that is precisely what the culprits in today's episode had in mind.
Share
06:08
They'd knock off the shop, load out all the equipment, ship it to a different state and sell it on the black market. All told the job stood to make the Hi-Fi bandits a great deal of money. The perpetrators also had one other stipulation for the heist, which was from which they would not swerve. They were not going to leave any witnesses alive.
Share
06:24
Why? Why? Just wear masks. Look
Robbery
, bad crime! You're going to go to prison for a long time, wear a mask so people can't identify you. There's no need to f-ing up it to Murder
-er. I feel like, this is again Simon's knowledge of American law from TV and movies, but I feel, and I'm probably wrong and it's probably state specific, blah, blah, blah, blah blah. But if you do Robbery
and Murder
at the same time, for some reason, if you combine those crimes, they can give you the old Needle In The Arm
, can't they?Share
06:53
There's like something that makes it more serious, like aggravated
Murder
or some sh-t. And I'm like, yo, you're already murdering. Does the Robbery
really matter?Share
07:02
You came seeking slaughter.
Share
07:07
As evening fell on the town of
Ogden
, only two employees were left working at the Hi-Fi shop. As things wound down, they weren't expecting many customers. The lone salesman on duty, Stanley Walker, was 20 years old. He was tall, muscular, athletic and handsome. So much so he could be forgiven for the stereotypically bad 19 seventies haircut.Share
07:25
All told Stanley Walker was a model
Utah
citizen. He was a volunteer basketball coach. He was an activity coordinator for a local young men's club, "The Mutual Improvement Association".Share
07:35
I wonder what that club does?
Share
07:38
Stanley attended the local
Weber State College
. He was even an elder of the local Mormon
chapter.Share
07:43
I was like, when are we finding out he's
Mormonny
? This is Salt Lake
or Utah
, sorry, you know, it's a bit Mormonny
. I like that.Share
07:52
Which, despite the old fogieness implied by the term is the title frequently bestowed on young men if they've progressed through a certain degree of religious instruction and have become community leaders. Whatever your personal opinion of
Mormonism
, it's quite clear that Stanley Walker was a good egg and a decent human being.Share
08:07
I don't know much about
Mormonism
. I don't feel like Mormonism
is- Is Mormonism
a thing in the UK
? Are people mormons? Who are the people who come to your House? They're annoying.Share
08:18
Oh,
Jehovah's Witnesses.
jw dot org. You're welcome for that free plug JW. I only know it because where I go to get the tram to work in the morning, there's often a Jehovah's Witness
stand and they're just like, they've got their leaflets and stuff and I'm like, "no".Share
08:37
I'm not even into regular religion. Do you think I'd be into like more intense version of religion where I have to stand around and recruit people to religion? I mean, maybe one day when I find Jesus.
Share
08:46
Working as a bookkeeper and a cashier at the Hi-Fi shop was Sherry Ansley aged just 18. She attended
Bonneville High School
. This was Sherry's first week working at the store, a part time job she'd gotten for a bit of pocket money. And with it being Utah
in the 1970s The young Sherry Ansley was already engaged to be married. The wedding was being held after graduation four months later in August 1974.Share
09:06
I would have loved to have worked in a Hi-Fi shop. I worked in a few shops and it was always like supermarkets and we'd sell like boring - like milk. Working in a Hi-Fi shop would be like, that'd be way better. There'd be all sorts of Hi-Fi's, you can listen to music, you can learn about Hi-Fi's and tell people about Hi-Fi's. I'd like that job. It's hard to tell people about milk. "So what sort of milk do you want? "There's no one that asks that, no one ever, I don't even know why I said that it's just boring. Hi-Fi's would be, I don't know, it's because I like audio stuff.
Share
09:35
I recently bought a great pair of headphones, it's blowing my mind, like a couple of months ago. I just sit down and listen to music that I've listened to and I've got one of those High Fidelity streaming services called Tidal and I'm like, "oh my God, you can hear so much more of the music". It's like experiencing albums over again. It's a brilliant thing. I'm so happy I bought these.
Share
09:53
They weren't Raycon's. Raycon's are fine. Like they're just everyday listening headphones, but they don't give you that kind of sound that you get with a high-end pair. Totally losing my Raycon sponsorship aren't I. Sh-t. No, They probably won't listen. Let's carry on.
Share
10:10
There's no other way to put it. Sherry Ansley was a fairly beautiful young woman, possessing a classical charm that not even the bad fashion trends of mid-1970s could diminish. All reports of her suggest she was an immensely cheerful and outgoing young woman supportive of her friends.
Share
10:23
Sherry Ansley looked up and smiled as 16 year old Courtney Nesbitt entered the Hi-Fi shop. Courtney wasn't a customer. He explained that he needed to head next door to the photo shop to pick up some pictures that he had developed and he was wondering if it was okay if he left his car in the parking lot behind the Hi-Fi store while he ran the errand. It would only take a few minutes. Sherry said it was probably okay, but he better ask Stanley Walker. He did and Stanley told him warmly that it would be perfectly fine. Courtney thanked them both and left.
Share
10:49
Courtney Nesbitt was a student at
Ogden High School
where he excelled at science. He had what some people might call a babyface, which heightened his already obvious youth, but despite the outwards look of innocence, Courtney also had a sharp look of intelligence in his eyes.Share
10:60
After school Courtney was training to be a pilot. Today he had done his first solo flight where he took off and landed the plane without any assistance from his instructor. As per a tradition at flight school after Courtney's successful landing, his instructor had cut off his shirt tails with a pair of scissors, essentially the back few inches of whatever shirt you might be wearing that day.
Share
11:16
The shirt tails were then tacked up on a bulletin board of the diagram of the runway on it and also the make and model of the plane Courtney had flown. All told Courtney had enjoyed a very good day, he was just picking up those photos before returning home to dinner with his family.
Share
11:29
David, I get the feeling that by the way you're setting this up and giving us all this story about these wonderful people who are at the Hi-Fi store that these people are all going to get murdered, which I don't like.
Share
11:39
It's like, you know when you're watching a TV show and there's that moment where they just do something. I don't know. I always point it out like we'll just be watching some show and I'll be like "that person's going to die" because they do that thing where they humanise them. It will just be like, oh, they'll they'll just talk about their family. Like a random character. You know, he's not normally part of the plot. They'll talk about their family or their kids or something and I'll just be like "That person's going to die".
Share
12:02
The the script writers have just humanised that person so we feel bad, we feel something when they die, rather than just like random character we don't care about. I think that's what David's doing here and I don't like it, David. I don't like it.
Share
12:15
Shortly after Courtney Nesbitt exited the shop, two vans containing six men slowly drove past the Hi-Fi store at 2323 Washington Boulevard in the town of
Ogden
.Share
12:24
Traffic was fairly light on the road with a smattering of commuters making their way home. The two vans pulled around the corner and entered the parking lot behind the store. The vans parked right in front of the shop's back door, which the employees used for unloading and loading new sound equipment.
Share
12:38
Four men exited the vehicles. Two getaway drivers remained at the wheel of each van, leaving the engines running ready to pull away at a moment's notice. One man hung around the parking lot, waiting to load the stolen goods into the vans and acting as a lookout. The three remaining men, William Andrews, Pierre Dale Selby and a third man who has never been identified, headed around the corner to the front door of the shop.
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12:59
Andrews was 19 years old. Tall with a square jaw line and extremely well built and muscular. He had sharp cold eyes and frequent resting position, and the frequent resting position of his face was a scowl. He's got resting scowl face.
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13:12
Selby, on the other hand was not quite as well built as his comrades, but he was still lithe, fit and sinewy. He had a receding hairline despite being 21 years old. Familiar. I don't think I was receding at 21, but from 22 to 23 to 25, it just all left.
Share
13:36
His eyes and expression have often been described as empty, soulless and devoid of any sign of humanity. If you have previously listen to descriptions of psychopaths on The Casual Criminalist, this particular trait will already be dreadfully hauntingly familiar to you. Yes.
Share
13:50
The young men had been contemplating the
Robbery
at the Hi-Fi store for weeks and now it was show-time the only issue was not getting caught. The men were stationed at the local air base outside of town which gave them a bit of anonymity. Being 1974 any sort of security camera footage was unheard of. That left the witnesses in the store whose testimony might help police track the men down. The solution was simple: They all have to die.Share
14:11
The solution is f-ing simple, just wear a mask you -heads.
Share
14:15
The men burst into the store, aiming 25 caliber handguns at Sherry Ansley and Stanley Walker.
Share
14:20
And I mean not just from the perspective of not being a piece of sh- murderer, but also like, yo, if you just robbed the store and run away the police are going to put like, I mean, it's a big crime, so there's gonna be an investigation, but it's not going to be the level of investigation where there's been multiple
Murders
, is it? So even from the perspective of committing a better crime and increasing your chances of getting away with it, you shouldn't kill people. It makes no sense. We need to add that to the rule of crime somehow.Share
14:45
The two employees were marched into the storage basement of the Hi-Fi shop and had their arms and legs bound with rope. The two
Hostages
were left lying on their stomachs on the floor of the basement while the three men herded upstairs.Share
14:55
First they emptied the cash register, then they started heaving the expensive equipment towards the back door of the shop. Propping the loading door open, two men began loading the equipment onto the vans while two getaway drivers sat there at the ready. The two remaining gunman, Andrews and Selby, remained in the store to continue moving the equipment.
Share
15:12
At this point Courtney Nesbitt exited the front of the next door photo shop onto Washington Boulevard. He headed in through the front door of the Hi-Fi store as a means of a shortcut to the parking lot where his car was waiting. Courtney also intended on thanking Stanley walker for letting him park there. Instead Courtney encountered Andrews and Selby who were in the midst of the
Robbery
. They quickly subdued the young man, marched him at gunpoint downstairs and similarly bound him just as they had done Stanley and Sherry.Share
15:37
Andrews and Selby continued to move the Hi-Fi equipment to the loading door so that their collaborators could load it onto the vans. All told the robbers managed to seize over $5,300 in sound equipment, which translates to roughly $30,000 in today's money.
Share
15:50
While not the biggest score in history, such was the extensiveness of Hi-Fi equipment that robbing the store was about as good as knocking off a small town bank and unlike a bank, the Hi-Fi store had zero security.
Share
16:01
Is it really worth it? I mean, I know $30,000 in today's money is a lot of money, but there's six of these guys, so they're getting $5,000 each. I don't know how
Gang
law works in the US
, but I believe that the in the UK
, I guess maybe in the US because it's probably Gang
laws as well that the guys who are driving the vans are also guilty of Murder
. Is it really worth that for five grand?Share
16:30
I mean really? You're in the
Military
as well so it's not like you're without a job. You're getting some sort of pay. I'm sure paying the Military
is not brilliant but come on. Oh and the reason they'd be guilty, at least in the UK,
if I remember correctly, is if you commit a crime with someone else and you reasonably foresee that that someone else could commit Grievous Bodily Harm
, so really hurt someone.Share
16:59
And they kill someone or you foresee that they could kill someone and they end up killing someone, then you are also guilty of
Murder
which is intense. It's to like cut down on Gang
crime and this sort of thing.Share
17:10
Meanwhile, Orren Walker, Stanley Walker's 43 year old father had grown worried that his son had not yet returned home. Orren Walker headed to the Hi-Fi shop. After entering through the front door Orren was ambushed by Andrews and Selby who, like the others, held Orren at gunpoint and took him into the basement. For the moment, and only for the moment, Orren Walker's arms and legs were not yet bound. It was at this point that Sherry Ansley began crying and begging for her life.
Share
17:34
And you shall witness slaughter.
Share
17:39
After the capture of Orren Walker, Selby told Andrews to go outside to the vans and get something. A few moments later Andrew's reentered the basement clutching a brown paper bag which contained a bottle of
Drain Cleaner
, the label of which was hidden from the view of the Hostages
.Share
17:51
Standard household
Drain Cleaner
is a highly powerful and corrosive alkaline agent composed primarily of liquid Sodium Hydroxide
which in otherwise solid powdered form is called Lye
and is often sold to quickly break down organic material. Murderers often throw Lye
on corpses to speed up the decomposition. Liquid Drain Cleaner
also frequently contains sodium hydrochloride, chlorine and alkaline salts.Share
18:13
Within a few moments,
Drain Cleaner
is able to cut through hair, grease, chunks of meat and other forms of organic detritus that may have built up in the drains of one's kitchen or bathroom.Share
18:21
Yeah, it's actually amazing. Like whenever the bath, whenever the sink and the shower gets blocked, you just throw, I I didn't know it was a
Lye
or this Sodium Hydroxide
, whatever it is, you like, pour it into the drain, you have to, I think you have to mix two things together maybe. So maybe it's something else.Share
18:37
But anyway, you pour it down into that drain, you throw some water down there and it's like all of this like smoke that I leave because I don't want to be poisoned by whatever the fuck that is. And then it's just like, I'm sure all the hair and stuff in the drain is just dissolved and then the shower drain works perfectly and I'm like "this is amazing". So that's what people used to dissolve bodies? I never put it together. There we go.
Share
18:59
When using
Drain Cleaner
, one must be very careful to avoid letting the liquid come into contact with one's hands, clothes, mouth or eyes because, if not immediately washed away, it can do severe and even permanent damage.Share
19:10
Pierre Dale Selby had recently seen 1973's
Magnum Force
starring Clint Eastwood, in which a female victim was forced to drink from a bottle of Drain Cleaner
and she died almost immediately. To Selby's mind, this method of Execution
possessed a number of advantages.Share
19:24
First,
Drain Cleaner
was easily procured. Second, it was supposedly quick. Third, quietly poisoning the Hostages
in the basement of the Hi-Fi shop was preferable to shooting them since the latter method ran the risk of people on the street or in the next door photo shop hearing the gunshots and alerting the police.Share
19:39
Have these guys not heard of like strangulation or some - like that? This is how you choose to kill these people? What the -? What is wrong with you? If you just want to do like just, I don't know. I don't want to talk about like preferable ways to kill someone, but if someone was like "drink the
Drain Cleaner
or strangulation", I'd be like "fucking strangulation, obviously"Share
19:59
Of course the death depicted in the film which Selby had seen was utter nonsense. You don't drink
Drain Cleaner
and immediately keel over. It's more likely that the director of the film merely did not wish to show the true effects of Drain Cleaner
on the human body.Share
20:13
Upon consuming
Drain Cleaner
the liquid immediately burns your lips, mouth and esophagus. It then continues down your digestive track, scorching everything on the way down until it reaches your stomach where it starts to melt holes. Oh my God, this is grim!Share
20:26
At a certain point, you won't be able to swallow any more
Drain Cleaner
because the liquid will have already burned through your entire esophagus. Once the esophagus and stomach are breached, the Drain Cleaner
is free to enter the rest of the body where it slowly consumes your intestines and other vital organs.Share
20:38
Usually at this point the victim has already died from shock due to the immense pain. The
Drain Cleaner
will then destroy the person's lungs while they suffocate to death. Fairly sizeable amounts of Drain Cleaner
are required to cause death and the amount of time it takes can linger for five, ten, twenty minutes after the Drain Cleaner
is consumed.Share
20:56
Dude, I had no idea how horrible that was. I was like, I know people like this, like don't drink
Drain Cleaner
and stuff, you know, you gotta be careful, you can't leave it around kids and all that stuff. I had no idea it was so horrible. Although I just assumed it was kind of like a poisoning thing. Oh my God.Share
21:11
With the bottle still hidden inside the paper bag, Selby poured out a cup of
Drain Cleaner
and handed it to Orren Walker demanding that he administer the unidentified liquid to the other three Hostages
. Orren Walker refused. He was swiftly beaten as a consequence and then tied up with rope around the arms and legs and then left face down on the ground.Share
21:28
At this moment 52 year old Carol Nesbitt, the wife of a local doctor and Courtney Nesbitt's mother entered the front door of the Hi-Fi shop upstairs. She was aware Courtney was going to pick up some photographs before heading home after his flight lessons. With the hour drawing late, much like Orrin Walker, Carol had gone looking for her son. Not finding Courtney at the photo shop, she noticed his car parked behind the Hi-Fi shop so naturally Carol went inside looking for him.
Share
21:51
The store was empty and abandoned when she entered. Not a soul was to be seen. Not only was the store devoid of people, it had been stripped bare of merchandise and what scraps remained on the floor and shelves were in total disarray. The cash register hung open. A ledger had been hurled to the floor. Carol stood there for a moment processing what she was seeing and taking in the still, unnerving silence.
Share
22:11
Then, with a sudden crash and a series of loud thumps, two men, Andrews and Selby, burst upstairs from the basement, aiming their handguns at Carol Nesbitt. She was forced downstairs into the basement and she was bound with rope.
Share
22:22
Wow, this is really escalating! How many people are there now, down in the basement? We're talking a major
Murders
. What was this episode called? The Hi-Fi Murders
. Oh man, okay, so they're going to die.Share
Break
Simon Whistler
24:17
I really hope it's not the drain killer though. That sounds fuckin' horrible. It was only at this point that Andrews and Selby had the good sense to lock the front door lest the entire town turn up next. And at this point in order for the six robbers to collect $5,000 apiece in today's money, the number of
Hostages
had ballooned from 2 to 5 people.Share
24:34
Yeah, is killing two people worth five grand? That's no, obviously not. It's insane. Five people is like two and a half times the insanity. Andrews and Selby returned to the basement. They pulled the five
Hostages
off the floor and placed them in sitting positions against the wall. They told the five people that the liquid in the brown paper bag they'd just brought was vodka laced with sleeping pills.Share
24:53
This would knock the
Hostages
out and prevent them from calling for help or attempting to escape while the robbers left the scene. One by one Stanley Walker, Courtney Nesbitt, Carol Nesbitt, Sherry Ansley and Orrin Walker were forced to drink the Drain Cleaner
.Share
25:06
The victims immediately received second degree burns, to their lips, mouths and throats. The victims began coughing and screaming in pain. They screamed so loudly that Selby and Andrews tried to cover their mouths with duct tape. However, the adhesive would not stick to the victim's peeling and corroding skin and just slid off their faces.
Share
25:21
Eventually, oh my God, this is horrible. Eventually the injuries they sustained made it difficult for most of the victims to emit any sound any longer.
Share
25:30
God damn! What the, like, I don't understand. You're just robbing. You just are financially motivated. Why the - do you have to kill them in this horrible way? I guess they just really thought that it just works like poison in this movie. Holy sh- you f-ks!
Share
25:44
Stanley, Courtney and Carol went into shock and began convulsing. Sherry Ansley in her emotional distress appears to have coughed up much of the liquid without swallowing it, sparing her a great deal of internal damage beyond secondary degree burns to her lips and mouth. After Ansley's turn had finished, she was still able to swallow with difficulty and was still able to speak.
Share
26:02
Meanwhile, when it came for Orrin Walker's turne to drink the liquid, having observed the liquid was not vodka and sleeping pills, but obviously some kind of corrosive material, Orrin let the liquid dribble out of his mouth and down his chin as he drank it without swallowing. He then mimicked the screams and convulsions of his fellow
Hostages
.Share
26:16
It was by this clever move that Orrin Walker avoided some fairly grim internal injuries. As five people lay there in agony, it slowly dawned on Selby that he had been led astray by the Clint Eastwood film he'd seen. The victims were not dying. The Hi-Fi equipment had long been loaded onto the two vans.
Share
26:33
The victim's screams may have caught the attention of someone on the street or in the next door, photo shoppe. Selby became angry. Andrews went upstairs. Meanwhile Selby took his 25 caliber handgun and shot Carol and Cortney Nesbitt in the back of their heads.
Share
26:45
Selby then attempted to shoot Orrin Walker as he lay there pretending to convulse on the ground, but the bullet missed and lodged on the floor. Wow! Someone is looking out for Orrin. God damn! Selby then shot Orrin's son Stanley in the head. Selby then returned to Orrin, fired again, also hitting him in the back of the head. That dealt with four out of the five
Hostages
. Man, I don't like this.Share
27:05
Shelby then called out to Andrews and in an appalling display of recklessness and callous psychopathy, he told him to wait upstairs for 30 minutes. The perpetrators were now lingering needlessly at the scene. Selby turned to 18 year old Sherry Ansley who had retained consciousness.
Share
27:19
Selby untied her, marched her at gunpoint to the far corner of the basement and told her to remove her clothes. Selby we then
raped
the victim. Afterwards, he ordered Sherry to use the downstairs toilet while he watched. Then Selby dragged her, still naked, to where the other victims lay.Share
27:33
He then threw her to the ground. Sherry Ansley pleaded with him saying "I'm too young to die" before Shelby shot her in the back of the head. Selby then called Andrews back down- This guy's a - psycho. Selby then called Andrews back downstairs and noticed that Oren Walker was still alive.
Share
27:52
The bullet had just grazed the back of his skull instead of killing him. The perpetrators were suddenly anxious not to let off another gunshot. It appeared that nobody had been alerted by the previous screaming and gunfire and the men did not wish to tempt fate. Instead, Selby took a length of wire, climbed on top of Orrin Walker's back and attempted to
Garrote
the victim.Share
28:07
However, Orin struggled and Selby was not able to exert the required amount of pressure to strangle Orin to death. Instead Selby grabbed a ballpoint pen and shoved it into Orin Walker's ear. Selby then stomped the pen into Orrin's head and du du du du du du no! Good Lord!
Share
28:26
Instead the pen broke in Orrin's ear drum and then angled downward puncturing a hole in Orrin Walker's throat just below the corner of his jaw. Orrin was left to bleed out on the basement floor. Thereafter, Selby and Andrews headed upstairs, climbing into the waiting vehicles and the six perpetrators finally, at long last, left the scene.
Share
28:45
I don't understand! Just just wear masks mother what the.
Share
Break
Simon Whistler
31:35
Vengeance of the survivors.
Share
31:39
Three, wait, wasn't everyone dead? Three hours later Joyce Walker, the mother of Stanley and wife of Oran along with their son, Lynn Walker arrived at the Hi-Fi shop. They'd naturally grown worried about what their loved ones were doing. Looking at the shop window, they saw the place had been stripped bare. It was clear that a
Robbery
had occurred.Share
31:54
It was then that Lynn Walker heard sounds of groaning and yelling coming from within the shop. Lynne broke down the back door while Joyce Walker went to a pay phone to call the police. Stumbling down the stairs, Lynn Walker discovered the bodies of five people.
Share
32:06
His father Orran was gravely wounded but alive, having sustained burns to his mouth and chin, damage to his ear and throat and cut to the back of his head where the bullet had grazed him. He was making the noises that have been detected by his Son. Stanley Walker, unfortunately, was dead from a single gunshot wound to the head.
Share
32:21
The town of
Ogden
had been robbed of a kind young man and a community leader. Sherry Ansley had similarly died from a gunshot wound. She was only 18 and was to be married a few months later. Carol Nesbitt, who had arrived at the Hi-Fi shop out of concern for her son, was taken by ambulance to St Benedict's Hospital but was pronounced dead on arrival.Share
32:40
16 year old Courtney Nesbitt had survived drinking the
Drain Cleaner
and the gunshot to the head but was taken to hospital in critical condition. Doctors did not expect him to live for long. For several days Courtney Nesbitt lay in the intensive care unit clinging onto his life. His father Dr Byron Nesbitt sat by his bedside 24 hours a day, holding his hand, scarcely leaving his side.Share
33:00
Numerous relatives and church members also stayed at the hospital keeping vigil for the young man. In the end, Courtney Nesbitt pulled through and survived. He spent 266 days in hospital. He had suffered irreparable brain damage, but he was alive.
Share
33:14
Early episodes of the casual criminalist, people commented in the comments like, that, it revolves around me having a moral dilemma about the
Death Penalty
. The more casual criminalist I do, the more I'm like, "yeah, okay, I kind of get get it".Share
33:30
I mean, I don't. Okay, I don't know, I don't know. These mother- deserve, deserve to be killed. They deserve death, right?
Share
33:40
There should be no forgiveness for people who do something like this. Is that, is that bad? Is that moral? Is that... I don't know, just reading this and what they do to people pointlessly for $5,000. It's just like these are people who don't, I don't know, do they? I don't know if they deserve prison. I feel, I don't know. It's a tricky one, isn't it? Is it so tricky? I don't know. I don't know the ongoing moral debate that I have with the
Death Penalty
. Yes, I know.Share
34:09
The police arrived in the Hi-Fi shop a few minutes after the call by Joyce Walker. As the surviving victims were rushed off to hospital, Police inspected the scene. The brutality of the crimes dawned on the officers and it sickened them. A press release went out and the details of the
Robbery
and the Murders
hit the early morning news.Share
34:25
A few hours later, an anonymous tip came in to the police from an airman who worked at the Air Force base a few miles south of
Ogden
. The informant told police that in the days prior to The Hi-Fi Murders
that he had heard William Andrews and Pierre Del Selby discussing the Robbery
of the store, the massive payout and rehearsing the Drain Cleaner
poisoning scene from Magnum Force
. The informant also claims that Andrews said to him, quote "One of these days I'm going to rob that Hi-Fi shop and if anybody gets in the way I'm going to kill them".Share
34:51
They didn't get in your way, they didn't get in your way. If you had worn a mask and told them to f- off they would have f-d off and you could have taken all of the stuff because you know, who doesn't care about stuff. People who are going to die if they do. He's just not that bright. I think that's the problem. Like this guy is just dumb. He's bad. He's bad. He's definitely bad. But if he was smarter, I don't think he would have killed them.
Share
35:11
The intimate knowledge the anonymous informant had of their plan and the fact that the informant did not report such alarming talk to his superior officers makes it quite likely that the informant was actually one of the members of the six man team who assaulted the Hi-Fi shop that night but had thought that Andrews and Selby had gone too far.
Share
35:26
Alternatively, the informant had been told of these plans for no reason and did not lift a finger to prevent tragedy from occurring. There's a big difference between hearing people talk about crimes and reporting it and then, because I mean is planning, planning crimes is probably a crime, isn't it?
Share
35:45
I mean there's that thing where it's like, is that a thought-crime because it's like me thinking about robbing a store is not a crime at least I hope it's not a crime. I haven't really serious, I mean like I'm thinking about robbing a store right now, but like only because I'm thinking about it in an abstract sense, not because I'm actually going to do it and we don't want thought-crimes, but like planning the commission of a crime. That sounds like an offense, doesn't it? But also it's not...
Share
36:11
Guys, I don't know. I feel like that could just be people talking. Like just being like, "I'm gonna rob that store, I'm gonna be rich, going to get my $5,000, going to buy a car". It's like, wait, how much is the car? No, it doesn't work. It's not that much money.
Share
36:26
I don't know. I don't know. I get why he didn't report it. I get it because it's like sometimes you just don't want to stick your nose in someone else's business and you don't think that it's actually going to happen. I don't think that's that bad.
Share
36:37
A few hours after the news of
The Hi-Fi Murders
broke, two teenage boys dumpster diving at Hill Air Force Base
discovered the wallets and purses of the five victims, stripped of cash but still containing their driver's licenses. The two teenage boys had-Share
36:49
Why would you take those? Why would you take their wallets? Just take the money out the wallets and - leave them there. Why would you, these guys are just not that bright. I think that's what I'm really realising. They're just not that bright. Yeah, these guys probably didn't graduate from West Point.
Share
37:06
The two teenage boys had seen the news and recognised the victims from their photographs. They dropped the evidence where they found it and called the police. With April the 23rd having been having barely begun police now had two lines of inquiry pointing directly at
Hill Air Force Base
and directly pointing at the two people who actually led the crime. They're just not that bright. Police arrived at the base early that morning to retrieve the evidence from the dumpster.Share
37:29
A crowd of concerned airmen and mechanics gathered to watch the scene. Suspecting that the perpetrators were in the crowd a detective decided to put on a little show for them. As each wallet or purse was retrieved from the dumpster and placed in a plastic bag the detectives held each one with a pair of tongs and waved it at the crowd. He spoke dramatically about how this evidence would lead police very quickly to the arrest and the people responsible for such a heinous crime.
Share
37:50
He's trying to get them to run, isn't he? He's pretty clever. Observing the men watching his display, the detectives saw most of them stood there and stared in grim silence. That is, with the exception of two men who paced back and forth at the back of the crowd, speaking to each other, constantly making panicked gestures with their hands.
Share
38:07
Not only are these guys the worst human beings because of their fucking atrocious actions, but they're also just the worst criminals. Just like, just dumb, just really dumb. I kind of like how dumb they are because they're fucking horrible and they're stupid. I like I mean good Lord, could you be more obvious.
Share
38:29
The two men were approached and identified. It's been less than a day! As William Andrews and Pierre Dale Selby, combined with the anonymous tip, the two men were arrested and detained on suspicion of
Murder
.Share
38:41
A third man, Keith Roberts was- and there's people alive, so they're going to identify them pretty quick, was arrested under suspicion of being one of the getaway drivers. Selby, an Air Force mechanic had priors, he was a prime suspect for the October the 5th, 1973
Murder
of Air Force Sergeant Edward Jefferson, but police had lacked evidence and Selby was never formally charged.Share
39:00
A few months later - He's still in
the Air Force?
I guess if it's like you're innocent because there's not, yeah, you're innocent till proven guilty, so I was like, okay? But we kind of think he killed someone, can't we at least fire him or like discharge him or something? Although maybe it's better, he's in the, although no he's not obviously better he's in the Air Force
because he committed a way worse crime later. Oh my God, I don't know, this is complicated.Share
39:23
No, it's not just - kill'em. A few months later, Selby was arrested for car theft in
Salt Lake City
and was out on bail pending trial at the time of The Hi-Fi Murders
. How has he not been discharged from the Military
? Police obtained a search warrant for the men's barracks there. They discovered advertising flyers for the Hi-Fi shop and a rental contract for a storage unit.Share
39:41
Ah, ah you're so dumb. Police drove to the storage facility in question and, surprise, surprise discovered sound equipment stolen from the Hi-Fi shop and a half empty bottle of
Drain Cleaner
. Oh my God. And the Murder
weapon. Are you fucking shitting me? Given that half the bottle was split between five people it's no wonder that drinking it didn't kill the victims outright, but merely tortured
and disfigured them.Share
40:03
It is in this way that incompetent criminals can sometimes be the most dangerous ones. Shelby and Andrew's sheer utter stupidity concerning
Robbery
and Murder
achieved nothing but creating an extreme degree of suffering in their victims while not getting rid of all the witnesses they had planned.Share
40:18
How are there still so many pages left in this? I mean, it's open and shut. Bang him up, get him in the chamber, whatever. I guess you got to catch the other four guys who were involved as well. But I mean, good Lord, how did you think you were gonna get away with this?
Share
40:32
The public mood was vengeful. The act of
Robbery
was bad enough. The decision to Murder
any witnesses was a callous and senseless bit of overkill. Robbery
on this scale is a one out of 10. The Murder
of these people is a 10. You Tortured
, Raped
and murdered. Robbery
in this thing I don't even give a - about. I'll be like "okay, take all the -, I don't care", I wouldn't even prosecute that -. The other bit though, that is a 10 literally.Share
40:57
Their method of
Execution
was barbaric and ineffectual. Their efforts in the end were futile. By doing what they did they had made sure that their Robbery
of the Hi-Fi store would guarantee a far worse penalty than the thieves would usually get. They weren't just bandits, they were sadistic murderers and Utah
had the Death Penalty
.Share
41:16
Uh-oh boys, what have you done? All that planning, all that carnage for just a few thousand bucks. William Andrews, Pierre Selby and Keith Roberts were tried for first degree
Murder
and Robbery
. At trial Orrin Walker gave harrowing evidence where he recounted the torture and Murder
of his son in front of his eyes. Much of the events were reconstructed from Orrin's testimony in addition to what Andrews and Selby admitted to under questioning.Share
41:39
Courtney Nesbitt had sustained severe brain damage and had no memory of the
Robbery
or anything that followed it. During the trial it became established that William Andrews had devised the plan to rob the Hi-Fi store along with the idea of leaving no witnesses and it was Pierre Selby who had acted as his enforcer.Share
41:55
The two men had both forced five victims to drink
Drain Cleaner
, but it was Selby himself who carried out the three Murders
and two attempted Murders
along with the rape of Sherry Ansley before Selby executed her. Selby man, you've got to get that needle.Share
42:08
It also soon became established at trial that the third defendant, Keith Roberts had no connection to the
Murders
in the basement, having only remained at the wheel of the getaway car while the store was robbed and despite Andrew's being the alleged mastermind of the crime, it's apparent that both Andrews and Roberts were frightened of Selby whom the jury thought was clearly a violent psychopath.Share
42:27
Yeah, I should point out like, in this case where it's this is just one of those things where it's like super open and shut. Selby is a psycho, he murdered and
Raped
people as part of a Robbery
. In that case it's like we know he is guilty.Share
42:39
The problem that I never address in these Casual Criminalists with regard to the
Death Penalty
and I know we're going back there again and I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I know hit the comments is we know in all of these cases that we cover, we know the problem is with the Death Penalty
like innocent people are executed on death row, which is insane and that is the argument against it for me. I have come again, I'm not sure, but I've kind of come to the belief that I believe there are some crimes that people do deserve to be executed for.Share
43:06
The problem is when there are, when it's not as open and shut, when it's not a Casual Criminalist episode, but it's crime that is less, we don't, you know, it's- When someone could be innocent, that's the problem because I believe it's better for 10 people to go free who are guilty than one innocent person to be imprisoned.
Share
43:24
And I think that's kind of how the justice system is built in most countries, most places and I think that's right, so that's an obviously added complicated factor rather than just being me like super pro
Death Penalty
. Let's see if we can not talk about this for the rest of today's episode. I'm sorry.Share
43:42
In November 1974 the getaway driver, Keith Roberts, was cleared of all
Murder
charges and convicted of Robbery
. He was given five years to life and spent 13 years in prison before being released in 1987. He relocated to Oklahoma. Five years later on August the 8th 1992 Roberts shot himself unable to live with the guilt.Share
43:57
Pierre Del Selby was convicted on three counts of first degree
Murder
and two counts of Robbery
. He was handed three death sentences. He was not charged or convicted on the two attempted Murders
or causing Grievous Bodily Harm
. The death sentences- so Pierre was the, oh, Pierre was Selby. That's Pierre Selby. So he was the really terrible dude. Good. He got three death penalties.Share
44:19
He was not charged with
Grievous Bodily Harm
though? Really? The death sentences were considered enough to see justice done. Yeah, okay, it's like the Robbery
, just, fuck it. If we're gonna get him three death sentences, that's enough, that's enough. Can only be dead once.Share
44:31
William Andrews was also convicted on three counts of first degree
Murder
and two counts of Robbery
. Although he had not shot the victims himself, the prosecution argued that he did devise the plan to kill all the witnesses and had forced the victims to drink Drain Cleaner
in an attempt to kill them. Just as a mob boss does not have to be the trigger man to go down to Murder
, Andrew Williams was considered to be just as complicit in the three deaths.Share
44:50
Additionally, Andrews had voluntarily left the basement and waited upstairs while Selby executed, or attempted to execute four of the five
Hostages
and then Raped
and murdered Sherry Ansley.Share
44:60
Then Andrews came back downstairs for the second attempted
Murder
of Orran Walker, showing complicity with and demonstrating no resistance to Selby's brutal slayings. As a result, William Andrews was also handed three death sentences. It is vital at this juncture to reflect whether you think that three death sentences for Selby and Andrew's reflect the severity of their crimes. Consider also that the Death Penalty
is part of Utah
law.Share
45:24
Orrin Walker grieved the loss of his son and lived the rest of his life making few comments to the press. He died on June the 4th 2000 aged 69.
Share
45:31
Courtney Nesbitt was released from hospital in late 1974. After a great straight deal of struggle and perseverance, Courtney managed to graduate from high school and passed his pilot's exam. Unfortunately due to his brain damage and chronic pain, Courtney dropped out of college and cannot keep a regular job and he spent the rest of his life on disability support. In 1985, Courtney married Catherine Hunter. Courtney died June the 4th 2002, aged only 44.
Share
45:55
The twist.
Share
45:60
I've not mentioned this so far in the script, Simon, but the perpetrators of
The Hi-Fi Murders
were Black. Soon after-Share
46:06
I am reading this whole script and it's just White dudes in my mind. Is that ra-? I don't know if that's, I guess that's less racist than if I, I, let's just not comment on this. Let's just get a bit more deep into it.
Share
46:21
Soon after their convictions for
Murder
both Selby and Andrews started making allegations that they had received an unfair trial due to systemic Racism
in the Utah
judicial system and even alleged that if they had been White men convicted of the same crimes, they would have given life imprisonment rather than three death sentences. Look I just read this whole thing assuming these were White dudes.Share
46:44
These mother- deserve, deserve to be killed.
Share
46:49
Oh my God, I don't know. This is complicated. No, it's not just -ing kill him, bang him up, get him in the chamber, whatever.
Share
46:57
So, and I'll be like, no boys. Oh god, is it because I'm White? I don't know. Oh -, we're getting, I don't know. I don't know. This is complicated. Wait, I'm a White dude thinking that these White dudes should get killed. Even if I was a racist, then I'd, then I'd, no, because I'm not a racist. So, oh God it's gone. David, Why did you do this to me?
Share
47:24
I mean it's also complicated because of course, of course there's systemic
Racism
in the US
and I'm sure beyond the US justice system. I mean Black people are way more likely to get, statistically right, way more likely to get convicted of the same crime than a White dude, which is f-d up!Share
47:43
Andrews maintained that since he had not carried out any of the actual
Murders
himself, that it was Racism
which had gotten him sentenced to death. I wonder, Simon, if these revelations changed your opinion at all on the sentencing of Andrews and Selby from just a few paragraphs ago. Were you okay with the death sentences or were you already leaning towards life imprisonment?Share
48:02
I mean I don't know about the second guy. For Selby, I was like yeah, that guy, I was pretty sold on the
Death Penalty
. For the second guy, I didn't comment, which mostly because I said, I wasn't gonna talk about the Death Penalty
more but here we are. But I felt maybe we should push that towards more life imprisonment because he would, he didn't actually kill anybody, technically.Share
48:23
I don't know where I stand. I still believe Selby, I mean, I felt really comfortable with him getting the
Death Penalty
and I don't think that the colour of his skin should change my opinion on that frankly. Unless there was Racism
in the system but I haven't seen any evidence of that in this case other than the obvious built in Racism
that exists.Share
48:41
But on the prima facie, this guy did these horrible crimes that I think a person should be killed for, I guess. Oh my God, this is morally complex. And could I also oppose the same question to the podcast listening audience.
Share
48:55
The Youtube audience may already have been aware of Andrews and Selby's ethnicity depending on whether Jen posted their photos earlier in the episode.
Share
49:02
Uh, no, I didn't.
Share
Simon Whistler
49:03
Oh my God, that's so true. The people listening, if you don't know these crimes, people listening to this show and people watching this show, are going to have a different experience, which is crazy.
Share
49:17
But it also allows an opportunity for an honest question. Would you have gladly seen these men, regardless of their ethnicity, sentenced to death in
Utah
given the nature of The Hi-Fi Murders
or despite Utah's
legal code, would you have preferred life sentences regardless of their ethnicity?Share
49:31
Like so many questions, there's no clear correct answer and we shall see if your opinion changes as we dig into the context and what Andrews and Selby alleged about the trial. First, to get a minor detail out of the way detail out of the way purely for the sake of accuracy, while appealing his sentence, Selby changed his name twenty seven times while in prison allegedly to protect his family from the press.
Share
49:51
He finally decided on Pierre Dale Selby, a rearrangement of existing names, which is why some sources and other true crime shows on
The Hi-Fi Murders
give them in a different order.Share
50:02
After Selby and Andrews were sentenced to death in November 1974, there was intense protests from the
NAACP
. Note to Simon: always pronounced in America
as N double A C P. Okay, N double A C P, sorry.Share
50:15
Or for people not from
America
or familiar with its politics, The National Association For The Advancement Of Colored People
founded in 1909, in case anyone was curious about the phrasing used in the name. Yeah, like, okay, I was like, wait, the National Advancement for the Association Of Colored People has "colored people: in its name. I don't think that's okay.Share
50:31
The
NAACP
was joined by Amnesty International
, prominent international human rights non-governmental organisation, which also began campaigning on Selby and Andrews behalf. The major bone of contention, this is okay fine. You can do all of this to investigate whether there was Racism
in the verdict and the sentencing and all of this stuff. Yeah. Okay. Great.Share
50:52
The major bone of contention for both organisations was that Selby and Andrews were both Black and the victims were all White. And most crucially, it's going to be the jury is going to be just all White people from
Utah,
was that the jury that found them guilty were all White. Amnesty International
claims that the only Black member of the jury pool was dismissed by the prosecution during jury selection and they initially cited racial bias.Share
51:13
It was later revealed that the Black jury candidate was a police officer who personally knew, quote "just about everybody tied to the case".
Share
51:20
Yeah, I think you'd be pretty okay with that dude on your jury, if you want as a prosecutor. Also for context, the local population at the time was 2% Black, otherwise being overwhelmingly White and Hispanic, 80% and 15% respectively, as a source for jury selection.
Share
51:36
And at the time, the American judicial system had no policies for ensuring a balance of ethnicities on the jury in, quote "racially sensitive cases". As some courts in the
US
have adopted and continue to practice today. Yeah, it's jury of your peers. Right? That seems fair.Share
51:52
There is even wider context that made the death sentences of Selby and Andrews even more controversial. Wait, who decides the death sentence in
America
? Is the judge the sentencing person or is it the jury? I feel for death sentences it might be the jury. Across the western world for the past few decades, numerous countries had abolished the Death Penalty
, as did a large number of US
states on an individual basis.Share
52:11
Then in a landmark case,
Furman and Georgia
in 1972, just two years prior to The Hi-Fi Murders
, the United States Supreme Court
struck down the Death Penalty
, citing that it violated the 8th and 14th amendments.Share
52:23
The 8th Amendment vaguely prescribed cruel and unusual punishment and the 14th amendment demanded equal treatment for all citizens under the law. The
Furman and Georgia
Supreme Court decision had the result of putting an informal halt on all executions in the United States
in 1972. Many of the death sentences active at the time were downgraded to life imprisonment.Share
52:40
Some legal scholars at the time speculated it would be impossible for
the United States
to bring back the Death Penalty
ever again. Well, they did. Nevertheless, in January 1973, the Utah
legislature passed its own statute that independently brought back the Death Penalty
to the state, regardless of the federal decision.Share
52:58
Wait, don't the states have to obey the federal decision on things like this? As in a number of
pro-Execution
US
states following the Supreme Court decision. Isn't that why it's called The Supreme Court?Share
53:08
In 1974, with the formal moratorium on the
Death Penalty
still active but not formally enshrined in federal law, the Utah
court sentenced both Selby and Andrews to death. Hence the outrage of the NAACP
and Amnesty International
.Share
53:21
Yeah, that doesn't seem right. If there is no federal
Death Penalty
should a state like, if the, this is like that federal versus state rights thing. There's another controversial issue.Share
53:32
Later, the informal moratorium on the
Death Penalty
was overthrown in 1976, after the Supreme Court found in the case of Gregg and Georgia
, that in aggravated circumstances, the Death Penalty
could be applied. The use of the Death Penalty
became increasingly common in many US states following this decision.Share
53:47
Nevertheless, the
Death Penalty
remained highly controversial and repugnant in the overwhelmingly liberal circles that animated most of the NAACP
and Amnesty International
, but I did some additional research. According to the Utah
statute itself, the Death Penalty
may be applied in cases of aggravated Murder
and aggravated- Is this the Robbery
and Murder
at the same time. Did I actually get something right? And aggravated Murder
is defined by 20 possible criteria of which The Hi-Fi Murders
qualify for eight or nine. Okay.Share
54:16
Yeah, you hit that. These criteria include, but are not restricted to: murdering more than two people in a single incident and or attempting to
Murder
even more people in the same incident, murdering in connection with rape or Robbery
, murdering for monetary gain, murdering with the employment of poison, murdering a hostage, murdering in a particularly cruel and heinous manner involving torture and mutilating or disfiguring a victim's body before or after death.Share
54:37
Any single one of these under
Utah
law would have qualified a convicted person for the death sentence. Well you qualified clearly.Share
54:47
Nonetheless, the spector of
Racism
haunted the trial. Most crucially, during a scheduled lunch break, someone slipped the jury members and napkin on which a doodle of a man hanging from a scaffold with the instruction to, quote "Hang the n-words". Naturally the napkin's author did not self censor with the term n-word. A jury member approached the bailiff had handed him the napkin.Share
55:08
Several other jury members also asked the bailiff if this would affect the trial. The bailiff replied not to let the behaviour of outsiders affect their decision. The person who initially passed the napkin was never identified. The
NAACP
and Amnesty International
argued that this napkin evoked a lynch mob mentality, that it influenced the jury and it should be grounds for a mistrial.Share
55:28
I don't know, if I'm sitting on that jury and I see that I'm like "what the - is wrong with that person? "But this was back in the day in
Utah,
not 2022, 30 year old Simon on the jury. This is like, there was more Racism
back in the day and I imagine like Utah
is 98% White or whatever. Ah, but the crimes were horrible. The crimes were bad.Share
55:57
During the trial initial reports tied the
Murders
back to a Black Supremacist movement and a newspaper falsely alleged William Andrews made the black power fist at Orrin Walker while in the courtroom.Share
56:07
Well that's -d up. How about you don't lie about sh-. How about you just do it on the basis of the facts which are -in horrible. Beyond the fact that the jury members were White the
NAACP
also pointed out the majority of them were practicing Mormons. At the time the Mormon church enacted a racist policy that did not allow black people to become priests.Share
56:25
I know I'm always, I know I shouldn't be surprised by this but I kind of am. Nah, 1970s were pretty racist. Okay. I'm not surprised.
Share
56:32
This allegation never made it into appeal deliberation since, one, it accused the Mormon jurors of being biased with no evidence beyond their being Mormon and, two, the
NAACP's
claim was prejudicial against a religion which was seen as bigotry of a different kind. How about no.Share
56:52
The
NAACP
also argued it was Racism
that caused William Andrews to be sentenced to death despite not being present in the room for Selby's brutal slayings and the rape of Sherry Ansley when the other White murderers in the state who committed crimes by their own hands were given life sentences.Share
57:07
Is that, I'd be very interested to know what the statistics on that were. Like can we look at an analogous crimes and, there must have been aggravated
Murders
and stuff.Share
57:16
Can we look at similar crimes and see what the sentences were and look statistically because if the statistics show that analogous cases with white people were getting life sentences and these black guys got death sentences, then obviously that's pretty f-d up. We need to look at those stats because like what I might feel doesn't matter if that's what the statistics show. It appealed.
Share
57:39
The judges argued that this was because not all murderers such as someone who
Murders
one person in a crime of passion qualified for any of the criteria for aggravated Murder
. Fine, but let's look at other cases of aggravated Murder
. Are there not any? Utah's
big. Come on. Additionally, the judges argued that Andrews had administered the Drain Cleaner
with the intent of killing the five victims.Share
57:57
The medical examiner further reported that Stanley Walker and Carol Nesbitt, being the most compliant in consuming the
Drain Cleaner
, would have died within 12 hours of drinking it if they hadn't been shot by Selby. William Andrews always maintained that while he did indeed pour the Drain Cleaner
into a cup and administered it, he did not believe that the victims would die from it.Share
58:14
Wait, wasn't he basing it on that movie he saw where they were like, the person died instantly and he was like, "yeah, that'll work". Quote, "It was not with the intent of using it to kill the people. In hindsight, I don't know what I was thinking. I was only 19".
Share
58:30
The police pointed to the anonymous tip which claimed that Andrew stated prior to the
Robbery
an intent to kill any witnesses and also to Andrews' admission, under interrogation, that he had purchased the Drain Cleaner
with a clear intent of using it on the victims.Share
58:43
The appeals judges stated that if Andrews intended to poison the victims with
Drain Cleaner
but not kill them, then there was no satisfactory explanation as to why Andrews intended to torture the victims when, up to that point, they had only been witnesses to a Robbery
.Share
58:56
Nevertheless, the fact remained that Andrews did not take part in any of the actual
Murders
firsthand. When it came to the shootings Orrin Walker himself testified that Andrews had said to Selby, quote "I can't do it, I'm scared" before temporarily heading upstairs.Share
59:11
The case here in the
US
is pretty clear that you do not need to have your finger on the trigger to also go down for Murder
when you appear to be in favour of having one of your accomplices carry out the killings much less devised the plan to kill all witnesses in the first place or attempt to Murder
the victims with Drain Cleaner
beforehand.Share
59:26
According to that case law, Andrews was by definition complicit, but there is such a thing as extenuating circumstances affecting sentencing.
Share
59:33
At the time Andrews was sentenced in 1974
Utah
law did not give jurors the option of sentencing people to life imprisonment when they met any of the twenty criteria for aggravated Murder
. In 1974 the Death Penalty
was automatic. The law was changed subsequently to allow the option of life imprisonment even in cases of aggravated Murder
.Share
59:50
However, the
Utah
Supreme Court rejected the idea of a new sentencing that would include the option of life imprisonment since the court judge argued that the new law could not be applied retroactively. I'm sorry, but then, the Death Penalty
is, it's not even the jury's decision. The jury's decision is looking at this case and saying, is this aggravated Murder
. Yes, this thing is aggravated Murder
. There's no question.Share
01:00:12
Did that guy essentially act as an agent for the Andrews guy. Did Selby act as an agent of by killing the other people. Yes, he did and it's aggravated, so automatically the
Death Penalty
gets applied.Share
01:00:29
We need to look at the stats about, if there's no, the problem is if there's no analogous cases, then you don't have the data, but it seems like this is a very logical progression of the law.
Share
01:00:41
Meanwhile, the appeal of Pierre Dale Selby against his death sentence claimed that the
Utah
statute shifted the burden of proof onto the defendant to prove that while committing the Murders
he did not qualify for any of the 20 criteria. The us court of appeals- Buh Selby didn't cry qualify for any of the 20 criteria? Are you smoking crack?Share
01:01:03
Of course he qualified for the criteria! There were many criteria and he meant like eight or nine of them! What the f-! Who's, which lawyer was this arguing this? What are you smoking?
Share
01:01:14
The US Court Of Appeals rejected this argument since the prosecution itself proved that Selby qualified for numerous criteria and the defendant did not have to prove otherwise. Selby also argued that the Fifth Amendment right against self incrimination have been violated when he had not been formally advised he had the right to remain silent and was examined by psychiatrist Dr Lewis Munch when determining whether Selby was sane and fit to stand trial.
Share
01:01:38
Selby had instead responded to Munch's questions. However, Munch gave no testimony that incriminated Selby. All Munch said was that he was fit to stand trial. After more than thirteen years and dozens of appeals the death sentence is held for both Selby and Andrews.
Share
01:01:54
No closure. Only death.
Share
01:01:59
While on death row in
Utah
state prison Pierre Dale Selby and William Andrews were hated by the other inmates, including the prison's Black population for the brutality of The Hi-Fi Murders
.Share
01:02:07
In 1977 another death row inmate, Gary Gilmore, was convicted of two
Murders
and was the first person to be executed following the end of the moratorium on the Death Penalty
. Reportedly he yelled at Selby and Andrews on the way to his Execution
chamber: "Either I'll see you in hell or adios. I'll be seeing you directly".Share
01:02:24
In the initial years following their convictions, both Selby and Andrews had to fight against getting executed by
Firing Squad
. What? 1977? I mean, it seems, I'm alarmed and shocked because that, I thought, like holy, Firing Squad
, but also if someone was like lethal injection or Firing Squad
I'd probably choose Firing Squad
because, I don't know, I saw those news articles where that lethal injection goes wrong, holy shit, where it was and still is a legal form of punishment in Utah.Share
01:02:59
Oh my God,
Utah
, what are you up to? Its 2022! In the event, Pierre Del Selby was executed by lethal injection on August 28th 1987. In Selby's will, he bequeathed all of his money to William Andrews which amounted to a whopping $29. Selby's last words prior to his Execution
were, quote "I'll be glad when this is over".Share
01:03:19
The murderer of three people, the rapist of a woman and the torturer and attempted
Murder
of two more people died soon after uttering these words, He was 34. Today, fewer people dispute the validity of Selby's Execution
than they do with the death of William Andrews who after numerous appeals was killed by lethal injection on the 30 July 1992 at the age of 37.Share
01:03:39
Yeah, the William Andrews one is obviously much more complicated. I kind of believe that the law was, whether the law is right or not, he fell into that
Death Penalty
because of the crimes that he committed. I, whether that law is right, I don't know. That's, that's more difficult and complicated.Share
01:04:06
His final words were "Thank those who tried so hard to keep me alive. I hope they continue to fight for equal justice after I'm gone. Tell my family goodbye and I love them".
Share
01:04:16
Four years later on December the 19th 1996 the
Inter-american Commission on Human Rights
, a Non Governmental Organisation based out of Costa Rica with no legal jurisdiction, found that the United States
had violated its international obligations by denying William Andrews a fair trial free from racial discrimination, a claim that is strongly disputed by relevant officials in the Utah
legal system.Share
01:04:37
Did Andrews deserve death? Did he suffer racial discrimination during the trial and during sentencing? I shall let you ponder these questions for yourself in the comment section. Yeah. I mean, wow, this is an intense episode, isn't it?
Share
01:04:51
Meanwhile, the final moments of today's episode should be given over to remembering the victims: Stanley Walker, Sherry Ansley, Carol Nesbitt all murdered and the traumatised survivors Orrin Walker and Courtney Nesbitt.
Share
01:05:04
Courtney spent his entire life struggling with brain damage due to being shot in the head by Selby and was in chronic pain from the
Drain Cleaner
administered by Andrews. After the Execution
of Andrews in 1992 Courtney told the Salt Lake tribune that he had already forgiven Selby and Andrews and added, quote "Where does the anger a victim feels for a perpetrator go when the perpetrator is gone? "Share
01:05:23
Courtney died 10 years after Andrews in 2002 at the age of 44, his life cut short by decades long illnesses caused by his attempted
Murder
on one horrible night on the 22nd of April 1974.Share
01:05:37
Dismembered appendices
Share
01:05:40
The Hi-Fi Murders
were explored in a 1982 book by Gary Kindred was depicted in a TV movie Aftermath: A Test of Love in 1991. Beyond that, the story has rarely been touched on by Hollywood, possibly due to the racial controversy and is also surprisingly under examined by many true crime channels despite the incidents public notoriety. As I mentioned at the outset, I got a I got a lot of requests for this one.Share
01:06:04
Number two: Only a few months before
The Hi-Fi Murders
, Pierre Dale Selby was a prime suspect in another Murder
investigation. Shortly after joining the United States Air Force and being posted at Hill Air Force Base
as a helicopter mechanic.Share
01:06:15
Selby befriended Sergeant Edward Jefferson. On October 1st 1973 Selby was at Jefferson's apartment taping music when Jefferson found that his car keys were missing, Jefferson and Selby searched the apartment but could not find them.
Share
01:06:26
A few hours later, someone had taken the car keys to the base for duplication signing their name as Curtis Alexander, Selby returned to Jefferson's apartment and the next day miraculously found the keys there. Jefferson became suspicious of Selby and accused him of theft while changing the locks on his apartment and to his car ignition.
Share
01:06:41
Then, sometime between the hours of 10pm and 4am on the night of October the 4th and 5th, Jefferson was murdered by having a bayonet lodged in his face so deep that only the handle could be seen. Good Lord. While Selby was strongly suspected, police did not have enough evidence to lay charges on him for Jefferson's
Murder
.Share
01:06:56
Number three: William Andrews and Pierre Del Selby became close friends while serving at
Hill Air Force Base
in 1973 and 1974 and these men became part of a larger circle of associates who would frequently be in each other's company.Share
01:07:08
In March 1974, after Selby was out on bail for a
Salt Lake City
car theft, Andrews and Selby filed the papers to begin the process of leaving the Air Force.
Police had alleged that Selby probably had the intention of skipping his trial and that Selby and Andrews, along with their other associates, had decided on transitioning to criminal careers of which The Hi-Fi Murders
were only to be the first step.Share
01:07:29
Number four: Although William Andrews, Pierre Del Selby and Keith Roberts, one of the getaway drivers, were caught and convicted for
The Hi-Fi Murders
, none of the other three men in the six man team which knocked off the Hi-Fi shop that night where ever identified and brought to justice.Share
01:07:44
As we end today, I know this one has, like, political, racial, all sorts of connotations and I like how David brought it back to the victims in the end because that's who these episodes are about. It's not-
Share
01:07:59
And that's what I would like to end this one on just about, another comment that it's about the victims and their struggle and their ruined lives. And we didn't even mention it but all the people whose lives were affected by this and their families and all of that stuff.
Share
01:08:16
That's what I'd like to end this one thinking about rather than the political complicatedness of it all, even though of course that's important.
Share
01:08:23
I'm just going to end it there.
Share
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