Friday, Feb 11, 2022 • 49min
Work, Play, Rest - Part 2
Play Episode
As kids, play comes naturally. But over time, it gets replaced with work. This hour, TED speakers explore how to reconnect with play—to spark creativity, combat despair, and find our way in the world. Guests include musician Jacob Collier, human rights activist Yana Buhrer Tavanier, and web developer Stuart Duncan.
Read more
Talking about
Speakers
(4)
Manoush Zomorodi
Jacob Collier
Stuart Duncan
Show more
Transcript
Verified
Break
Manoush Zomorodi
00:18
This is the
TED Radio Hour
. Each week, groundbreaking TED
talks.Share
00:25
Our job now is to dream big.
Share
Manoush Zomorodi
00:26
Delivered at
TED
conferences-Share
00:28
To bring about the future we want to see
Share
Manoush Zomorodi
00:30
-around the world.
Share
00:31
To understand who we are.
Share
Manoush Zomorodi
00:33
From those talks, we bring you speakers and ideas that will surprise you.
Share
00:38
You just don't know what you're gonna find.
Share
Manoush Zomorodi
00:40
Challenge you.
Share
00:40
We have to ask ourselves, like, why is that noteworthy?
Share
Manoush Zomorodi
00:43
And even change you.
Share
00:44
I literally feel like I'm a different person.
Share
00:46
Yes.
Share
00:47
Do you feel that way?
Share
Manoush Zomorodi
00:49
Ideas worth spreading, from
TED
and NPR.
I'm Manoush Zomorodi
and today part two of our series, "Work, Play, Rest, "Share
01:03
We're examining the fundamental ways that we spend our time and how they're changing, including what it means to play. And we're going to start with some music.
Share
01:16
This is from a performance on the
TED
stage in 2017. Listening to this performance, you might not guess that all of these instruments are being played by one single musician who is practically leaping across the stage.Share
01:32
He's here for a second on the drums, then suddenly he's upright at his bass and then over to the keyboard. And he is just totally joyous. Playful. That musician is
Jacob Collier
.Share
Jacob Collier
01:48
What's up everyone?
Share
Manoush Zomorodi
01:49
Hey! we were just talking about you.
Share
Jacob Collier
01:51
What's this I'm hearing?
Share
Manoush Zomorodi
01:52
Oh, you know, the usual. Why don't- let's start by having you introduce yourself, tell us your name and what you do.
Share
Jacob Collier
01:59
So hello, my name is
Jacob
. I'm from North London
. I am a multi instrumentalist, so I play a few different instruments, and I'm also a producer and a songwriter and an arranger and composer and performer and a few other things besides. But mainly I'm just a human being.Share
Manoush Zomorodi
02:26
Something
Jacob
is so modestly not sharing is that he's also a five-time Grammy Award
winner, and he's only 27. Jacob
, exactly how many instruments do you play? Like, what do you have at your fingertips right now, right this second, that you could throw into a song if you wanted to?Share
Jacob Collier
02:46
Well, I've got my voice, which is the main one. And voice can do so many different kinds of things, and I'm a huge fan. Then I've got this, which is just a midi keyboard, and I can play notes on it like that, which is cool. I don't know if you can hear this, this is a bass guitar.
Share
03:04
So that's a bit of a friendly beastie. And let me just pick up this as well. This is an acoustic guitar. In fact, it's a five string acoustic guitar, which is a little uncommon. And so it's what I just described perhaps? Plus drums. So you've got things that make rhythm, you've got things that make harmony, you've got things that make melody, and then you've got things that make sound.
Share
03:32
And within those 4 families of kind of musical creation objects, I found myself never bored, you know, never unfascinated by the potential of what music could do.
Share
Manoush Zomorodi
03:43
And we should say that you are speaking to us from your home in
London
, from a very special room where you compose your music, can you tell us about it?Share
Jacob Collier
03:55
The magical room? Well, I'm extremely lucky in many senses, I feel. And one of those is that I've always lived in the same house for my whole life. This room was where it all began for me. And it's mainly because this is the room where the piano lives. And pianos are fascinating things for children. Specifically for me, I found it utterly magnetic.
Share
04:12
The idea that you could sit and basically play all music that had ever been made with these black and white keys. And it was just a matter of uncovering it.
Share
04:20
And so I spent a lot of time here just kind of seeking my own goose bumps, I suppose. Really kind of drilling into the things that that freaked me out the most and made me the most delighted. And I just got more and more fascinated and more and more thrilled by the kinds of emotional results that you could achieve just through sound and through storytelling. All from the comfort of my own home.
Share
Manoush Zomorodi
04:41
I also started on piano and I was told I needed to practice for 45 minutes every day. And I'm not- I'm sad to say that I don't play anymore, and I hated it, but it sounds like you got different directions or prompts?
Share
Jacob Collier
04:56
Well, I did, I do remember being offered piano lessons, which I politely declined. Very polite, but I did say, "You know what, I want to keep exploring this on my own terms. "
Share
05:06
Which was actually really well received. I was essentially brought up by my mom on her own. And so she had this kind of extraordinary attitude about learning which really came from play, rather than practice.
Share
05:18
And I think this is an interesting thing to think about and talk about because it's hard to draw the line between those two, and certain things you need to practice in order to be able to do them.
Share
05:27
And other things I think are better discovered through just the process of kind of sniffing out what feels really good. And both sides have existed for me ever since I began the world of music. However conscious I've been of either process, but much to my kind of delight and gratitude, looking back, I was really enabled to make my own world and design my own learning process in this room, kind of for myself.
Share
Manoush Zomorodi
05:49
I mean, what you describe sounds like the essence of what's wonderful about being a child: it's discovery and experimentation while you play and wonder. But how have you managed to hold onto that as you've become a professional musician, as you've gotten older? I mean, and that is the word that so many people use to describe your music, is playful, joyous.
Share
Jacob Collier
06:15
That's really lovely. It's funny, I still don't really think of myself as a professional musician, even though that sounds kind of strange to say out loud. I don't think I'm that professional. I mean, there are certain things that I've gotten very good at, but I think that in some ways, there's something very sterile inherently about the word professional because it means that you stopped learning.
Share
06:35
And I feel like in general, the more I figure out, the more there is to be figured out. I don't feel by any stretch, you know, "Well, I've finished that now, you know, I don't need to do any more of that. "
Share
06:46
Because I think that once you've understood a certain angle, or a certain corner, or a certain kind of concept or structure within it, then it just reveals the one beneath it or the one above it, you could say.
Share
06:57
So it's something someone once said, I can't remember who it was, but they said something like, you know, "The creative adult is the child who survived, "
Share
07:04
Which I think is kind of true, you know, I mean, every child — I'd like to think — goes into the world of education and learning with a totally open mind. And it's very, very difficult to kind of come out the other side with that curiosity intact because it's exceptionally easy for people to shut it down.
Share
Manoush Zomorodi
07:24
As kids, play comes naturally. It's what children do. But as we grow older, play gets replaced with work and obligations. We often forget about doing something just because it's plain old fun, and because it can spark the unexpected.
Share
07:41
So today on the show: the surprising power of play. How it can fuel creativity, be an antidote to despair and even help us find our way in the world for
Jacob Collier
, all he wanted to do as a kid was play around with music. And as he grew up, his obsession grew too.Share
Jacob Collier
08:02
You know, I'd learn a song, or listen to something, or whatever, and I bring it back home. And then I would I would re-create my own kind of spin on it — maybe I'd record the song and then I'd reverse it, you know — that's always a fascinating thing, especially for me when I was like 12 or 13.
Share
08:16
I used to play a game with my friend where we would say a word. You'd say something like, "Good afternoon, "and then you would reverse it, and it would be like [gibberish]. And then you'd learn how to say the reverse version, you'd say [repeated gibberish] and then you'd reverse that and see how close you were. Which was a really lovely kind of niche game I suppose, but it was so interesting, and all these tools were brand new, and I didn't understand what on Earth I was doing. But I wanted to find out.
Share
Manoush Zomorodi
08:43
So eventually, all this playing around, it turned into sharing your music with the world online, performing for crowds. At what point did that happen?
Share
Jacob Collier
08:53
Well, I would say performance and sharing happened at different times. For me personally, there was about 3 or 4 year window where I didn't play any songs live. I just released them as I had created them.
Share
09:04
And those songs back then, those arrangements and songs were kind of mosaics of sorts. You know, there were lots and lots of different ingredients all combining together to make a kind of quite an intricate structure.
Share
09:18
So there's lots of lots of different voices, and lots of different stringed instruments, and bass instruments, and drums. And various things that you wouldn't call instrument, but they are definitely instruments like badminton rackets, and saucepans, and things like that.
Share
09:30
So I decided to remember your name-
Share
Jacob Collier
09:32
And they'd all fit together to make this tapestry of sound. It's quite hard to play it live.
Share
Manoush Zomorodi
09:35
Sauce pants, did you just say?
Share
Jacob Collier
09:37
I said saucepans. Do you have saucepans?
Share
Manoush Zomorodi
09:39
We do, we call them saucepans. And, so wait, you're playing those? Those are in your room? Are they there right now?
Share
Jacob Collier
09:45
Oh yeah, yeah, there's one up on the shelf here.
Share
Manoush Zomorodi
09:50
Uh oh, are you OK, Jacob?
Share
Jacob Collier
09:53
Sorry, I had to I had to stand on the piano to get to get it. That's what it sounds like. It's a good one, isn't it? Kind of like an
Agogo
. So anyway, you know these things all kind of had their place, but when it came to, you know, how am I going to play this stuff live?Share
10:10
It was a really interesting challenge because I've never really considered having a traditional kind of band. And I kind of felt like the world I was making kind of needed its own degree of performance structure. And we started to mess around with a few different things.
Share
10:24
And the first thing I really wanted to build was this instrument called the vocal harmonizer. And the vocal harmonizer that we built was an instrument that basically enables me to sing a note and play a number of notes on a keyboard, and what comes out of the instrument is the sound of my voice, but singing all of the notes that I play. So it's kind of like I'm a spontaneous choir.
Share
10:48
How's everybody feeling today? You're feeling good, fantastic. Would everyone- would everybody mind singing with me for just one second? Could you sing something? Sing everyone sing a D, everyone sing ooh..
Share
11:03
Oooh..
Share
Jacob Collier
11:17
Now please, if you could sing Whoaa-ohh
Share
11:39
Whoaa-ohh
Share
Jacob Collier
12:08
Thank you so much, that's beautiful. Thank you.
Share
Manoush Zomorodi
12:12
Well, the one thing we can't bring people listening right now is that you're very generous with your expressions when you're on stage. Just the real genuine pleasure you derive from hearing sound. And you can't fake that.
Share
Jacob Collier
12:32
No, I think you're so right. And I think there's something really effortless about enthusiasm in a sense, because as you say, it's either there or it's not. And it takes no effort to be enthusiastic about something if you love it. At least that's what I find, is when I look back at the music that I have made in the music that I learned as a boy, a lot of it came literally just came down to, what do you like? Like what is it that you like?
Share
12:55
I think it's a question that's not asked enough in education where someone says, you know, "What do you like? What feels the most important thing to you to make in the whole wide world? "
Share
13:03
Because that's what you'll spend the rest of your life trying to figure out.
Share
Manoush Zomorodi
13:07
In a moment, more from
Jacob Collier
on keeping joy alive, even when play turns into work. I'm Manoush Zomorodi
and you're listening to the TED Radio Hour
from NPR
, we'll be right back.Share
Break
Manoush Zomorodi
14:41
It's the
TED Radio Hour
from NPR. I'm Manoush Zomorodi.
On the show today, part two of our series, "Work, Play, Rest". And we were just visiting with musician Jacob Collier
whose curiosity and sheer enthusiasm led him to a career on stage, performing around the world.Share
15:02
In other words, his play turned into his work. There is a school of thought where people say, you know, "Play around, figure out what you love, and do that and you'll never work a day in your life. "
Share
15:17
It sounds like that school of thought certainly works for you applies to you. But there are some people, I think, right now, who are thinking, "I have played around. And I haven't found my thing, my calling. "
Share
15:32
You know, I think we look at people like you, who are so beautifully managing to take play and turn it into work and back and forth like that, there's a melding there. But I wonder if for some people we have to say like it's OK, work is work, and play is play.
Share
Jacob Collier
15:47
Yeah. Oh, it's such a tough one. I mean it is OK to draw a line between work and play. I think to say that they have to be one and the same and that that's the only way that life is truly kind of meaningful, I think puts pressure on, in a certain kind of a way.
Share
16:01
There are certainly things I do that are no fun at all, and that you just have to do. Maybe it's doing a bunch of traveling, and being on early flights, and all these moments. You think, "Actually this really isn't fun, it's not healthy. It's not sparking any joy. I'm absolutely ravagingly knackered, and I just want to go home. "
Share
16:15
And I do know that feeling to a point. And I suppose what I'd say is it actually takes very little time and energy to be curious about something. And for me, I feel like curiosity is where so much of the joy starts. I know those days where my mind is closed, and I don't feel curious, those are the hardest days.
Share
Manoush Zomorodi
16:36
You have those days?
Share
Jacob Collier
16:36
Oh, absolutely. And I think that, you know, it was a big lesson for me was how to kind of re-find or discover the curiosity. And the thing that I felt which was wrong, I think, was I had to kind of rekindle curiosity that I used to feel about certain things, or even just music. I used to love writing songs, and now it feels like, "Oh, it's just so much pressure, "or, "There's a burden here, and I don't know if like-"
Share
16:58
Whatever. And I think, what I realized is that curiosity is always new. It always starts in the present, and it always applies to the present. Realizing that helped me get out of a bunch of ruts.
Share
17:09
I think the other thing about curiosity is that, you know, sometimes when you're curious, you go and create something. You know, you think, "I'm interested about that, I'm gonna write that down, I'm going to play that on my instrument, "or, "I'm going to teach about that tomorrow in a classroom, "or whatever. And whilst those ideas might stay, the curiosity moves on, and it moves on with your life.
Share
17:28
You know, you might have signed up for a job that felt like the dream job, and the job that will give you all of the joy in the world, and a few years might go on and you might think, "You know what, I think I've moved, and I think I need to do something new. "
Share
17:39
And I think that that's part of being human.
Share
Manoush Zomorodi
17:42
Alright, so
Jacob,
we have asked you to play us out of this conversation with a song that was born out of one of your moments of playfulness, about being curious about something new. What have you chosen to play for us?Share
Jacob Collier
17:55
I figured maybe I played the song that I released the most recently, which is one of my most favorite that I've ever written. In fact it was written in 15 minutes, which is a complete whirlwind. And I normally spend like months and months crafting a song.
Share
18:08
And this was one of the first songs I ever wrote that just kind of went and it popped out and it's very simple. It's an F-sharp major, which is one of the best keys in my opinion ever. I was actually in
New York City
when I wrote this song. It was just this figure, which is so simple.Share
18:25
I just thought that's nice. And then it was done, I thought, "Is that it? Do I need to now go and make 1000 layers and stuff? "
Share
18:35
And I thought, I don't know, but I recorded on my phone and then I forgot about it for a few months. And I came home and I sat here in this chair and I thought, "OK, how am I going to record this? "
Share
18:44
I thought, well, I've got my microphones out and I sat here and sang the song and it just didn't come close to the voice memo. Just didn't come close to it. So I released the voice memo in the end.
Share
Manoush Zomorodi
18:54
Did you?
Share
Jacob Collier
18:55
Yeah, I just released the phone voice memo. And I'm glad I did because it just reminds me- when I listened to it and when I play it, it reminds me of how sometimes it starts with just being curious about the smallest of things.
Share
19:08
You know, you just grab it for what it is and you don't- it doesn't have to be anything more than what it is. And sometimes it's really, really plain and simple. And it was unlike any other song I've ever kind of written, and I love it dearly. And it's called The Sun Is In Your Eyes.
Share
19:24
[singing] The sun is in your eyes. The sun is in your eyes. Throw me the cold. Throw me the cold, cold water of you smile again. To take me by surprise. You take me by surprise. Throw me the bold. Throw me the bold, bold treasure of your lips again. And where I go you lead me in the right direction. And with your love as my protection. I'll be a world of your projection. And where I go singing songs of your affection. With rhymes to your perfection. In my eyes, see your reflection of you.
Share
21:13
Thank you. Thank you very much.
Share
Manoush Zomorodi
21:15
That's
Jacob Collier
. You can see his full TED
performance at TED. com. On the show today: the power of play, especially during the toughest times.Share
Yana Tavanier
21:38
I had a bit of a difficult childhood, partially due to the fact that I grew up in communist
Bulgaria
.Share
Manoush Zomorodi
21:45
This is Yana Tavanier. And as a child in
Bulgaria
, some of her family members were targeted by the communist government. But Yana remembers the more joyful parts of her childhood, too.Share
Yana Tavanier
21:59
I actually had a lot of play and happiness and fun in my childhood — something that was very difficult back then. When I was a child, was that you would wake up, and the doorbell would ring, and it will be your friends. And they would just ask you to come out and play, and then anything could happen. I love this.
Share
Manoush Zomorodi
22:23
But as you got older, she lost touch with that playful side of herself. Her work as an investigative journalist and then a human rights activist was absolutely draining.
Share
Yana Tavanier
22:35
I spent years investigating institutions for people with intellectual mental health disabilities across
Eastern Europe
. I would go to these places undercover, and specifically, we were focusing on the number of children who died in these institutions. And I was wondering like, "This is horrendous. How do I tell the public this tough and horrible fact, and how do I make them understand the gravity of the situation? "Share
23:05
I was trying really, really hard, but at a certain point nothing seemed to make sense or to matter. And when I was experiencing burnout — and these were months and months of this feeling — it was waking up, going to work because you have to. Doing some work because you have to. But not really having a sense of real meaning, of real impact, of real value. I felt that I don't matter at all.
Share
Manoush Zomorodi
23:48
Yana Tavanier continues from the
TED
stage.Share
Yana Tavanier
23:51
Numerous studies, including a recent one published by
Columbia University
, show that burnout and depression are widespread amongst activists. Years ago, I myself was burned out. In a world of endless ways forward, I felt that my final stop. So what melts fear or dullness or gloom? Play.Share
24:14
From this very stage, psychiatrists and play researcher, Dr.
Stuart
Brown
said that nothing lights up the brain like play. And that the opposite of play is not work, it's depression. So to pull out of my own burnout, I decided to turn my activism into what I call today, playtivisim. And I know it is weird to talk about play and human rights in the same sentence, but here's why it's important.Share
24:45
When we play, others want to join. Today my playground is filled with artists, techies, and scientists together. We seek new ways to empower activism. Our outcomes are not meant to be playful, but our process is. To us, play is an act of resistance.
Share
Manoush Zomorodi
25:08
So, Yana, you learn about the research into play and you decide to put it into your activism. You call it playtivism. How did marrying those two things change you?
Share
Yana Tavanier
25:22
I felt, yeah, I felt joyous. The moment you find a way to bring back the joy, this is when you can successfully start to beat burnout. I strongly believe now, even more than before, that activism shouldn't be a lonely business. And in this process, I came up with the concept playtivism, which refers to creating these spaces for play and experimentation in activism.
Share
Manoush Zomorodi
25:57
OK, so tell me how this works and how your organization, Fine Acts, does this out in the field.
Share
Yana Tavanier
26:03
So the way that this works is that we pair one artist and one technologist, and then they have two days to come up with a concept. And then they present these concepts in front of a jury and audience, and it is decided which one Fine Acts will produce. There is some sort of direction, but at the same time almost no rules.
Share
Manoush Zomorodi
26:25
And just to give us an example, one of the projects that you've produced is about beating misinformation or fake news, and I have to say, it is really funny. It was a fake bakery, right?
Share
Yana Tavanier
26:39
Yeah it was a pop-up bakery that teaches about fake news through beautiful but horribly tasting cupcakes.
Share
Manoush Zomorodi
26:49
Yana and her team called their bakery Fakery. And they launched it with an enticing press release full of lies that got a lot of attention.
Share
Yana Tavanier
26:59
We created a fake news story that we sent to media all across
Bulgaria
, and the story stated that Jamie Oliver
, the famous cook, comes to Bulgaria
. And we were inviting people to come and try these recipes out. I would say tens and tens of media outlets published this story without, you know, ever putting a second thought or trying to reach us out for confirmation.Share
Manoush Zomorodi
27:26
So they opened their pop-up bakery.
Share
Yana Tavanier
27:29
It was in an actual restaurant. All decorated in pink.
Share
Manoush Zomorodi
27:35
And one at a time, guests were invited into a special room for a taste test. They sat down and then-
Share
Yana Tavanier
27:42
A lid would be lifted, and then the cupcake would be unveiled. And the reactions would be, "Oh my God, this is fantastic. Oh I can't wait to taste this. This is incredible. "
Share
Manoush Zomorodi
27:52
They look delicious. But these beautiful cupcakes had some unusual ingredients, like crumbled stinky cheese,
Share
Yana Tavanier
27:59
Fish sauce,
Share
Manoush Zomorodi
28:00
Salami,
Share
Yana Tavanier
28:02
And a lot of Tabasco and things of these sorts. And then the moment they would bite into the cupcake would be the moment of truth. There were some actual tears because of the unexpected horrible taste. Every single person laughed afterwards when they realized how they have been tricked by the fake news they consumed.
Share
Manoush Zomorodi
28:37
Do you feel like I'm chuckling and laughing because it's funny, it's a little bit of a prank in some ways. But do you feel like there's something about this kind of activism that makes people think differently about very hard and serious problems in society?
Share
Yana Tavanier
28:58
I have spent the last several years trying to understand better what makes people care. Human rights complaints are very often trying to convey information in either a very serious way, or a way that is designed to trigger guilt, or sadness, or fear. And this is why I believe in the power A) of art, and B) of the feelings of hope — and humor also — is really important to to get people to care about something.
Share
29:34
A recent study published by
Stanford University
about the science of what makes people care reconfirms what we have been hearing for years: Opinions are changed not through more information, but through empathy and using experiences. When we play, we learn.Share
29:51
So learning from science and art, we saw that we can talk about global armed conflict through light bulbs. Or tackle the lack of even one single monument of a woman in
Sofia
by flooding the city with them. And with all these works to trigger dialogue, understanding and direct action.Share
Manoush Zomorodi
30:13
Can we talk about one of your more recent projects? Decktators is a board game that puts players in the shoes of a dictator. So they get to really grasp the tools and tactics of oppression. And I'm saying it in that voice because it sounds so ludicrous. So people have different opinions when it comes to mixing politics and humor. Where do you feel like you draw the line? Is it pushing it just far enough?
Share
Yana Tavanier
30:43
In terms of hitting the right balance between seriousness and humor, I would always vote more for the humorous side. But overall, we need to believe that the idea will have a real impact. There are games that are kind of waving a moralizing finger, and are trying to talk about oppression but in a way that is very serious.
Share
31:15
People don't want to engage with the topic because it's too overwhelming. And we think that by designing a game that puts you in the shoes of a dictator, obviously you would be more willing to open up your mind and to actually learn the different ways in which dictatorship works, because there are steps towards the dictatorship.
Share
31:39
And we want, through this game, to make people recognize specific tactics that are perhaps being implemented by their own governments. Thus, we think that through the playful component, we would have people, yeah. Play and learn.
Share
31:59
Sometimes, when I talk about taking risks and trying and failing in the context of human rights, I meet raised eyebrows. Eyebrows that say, "How irresponsible, "or, "How insensitive. "
Share
32:14
People often mistake play for negligence. It is not. play doesn't just grow our army stronger or spark better ideas. In times of painful injustice, play brings the levity we need to be able to breathe. When we play, we live.
Share
32:35
I cannot overstate the value of experimentation in activism. We can only win if we're not afraid to lose.
Share
Manoush Zomorodi
32:44
That was Yana Tavenier, the co-founder and executive director of Fine Acts. You can see her full talk at TED. com. Today on the show: part two of our series, "Work, Play, Rest". I'm
Manoush Zomorodi
and you're listening to the TED Radio Hour
from NPR
, stay with us.Share
33:19
It's the
TED Radio Hour
from NPR
. I'm Manoush Zomorodi,
and today on the show: the power of play.Share
Stuart Duncan
33:27
So I've always been a gamer my whole life. But, of course, for me gaming was, you know, taking rolls of quarters to the arcade.
Share
Manoush Zomorodi
33:34
This is
Stuart Duncan
.Share
Stuart Duncan
33:36
And they had all the classics like,
Street Fighter
and Mortal Kombat
. But even older than that, we had like the old tabletop games: Pac-Man
, Centipede
, those old, old classics on a table. Like, I literally- I had one of those actual huge boxes with a knob at each end of the thing and a switch in the middle, and that was Pong
.Share
34:04
And I always thought of it as a tool to increase my problem solving, my hand-eye coordination, my reflexes, all that sort of stuff. I got better at things because of trying to figure out these video games.
Share
Manoush Zomorodi
34:15
Fast forward, and video games have changed. But so has
Stewart
— he's a web developer and a single dad.Share
Stuart Duncan
34:22
Yeah, I have two teenage sons, 16 and 14. The oldest is Cameron, he is autistic. And his younger brother Tyler, is not autistic.
Share
Manoush Zomorodi
34:32
And when Cameron was diagnosed,
Stewart
realized that maybe playing video games could be a way to help his son.Share
Stuart Duncan
34:38
We were getting him into speech therapy, occupational therapy. He, and to this day still, struggles with motor control. So in the beginning was gross motor control, you know, just doing the really big movements, and then of course eventually, the fine motor control, writing with a pencil and stuff like that.
Share
34:56
And I had the idea, if you remember the
Wii
, the first one, the controller, you could put it into a steering wheel and play Mario
Kart
, and you would drive it like a car — like an actual steering wheel. And I put the wheel in his hand and all he had to do was turn his hands a little bit and press one button to make it go.Share
35:19
He didn't have to coordinate, do any button combinations, none of that stuff. And of course at first he would twist his arms all the way around. So, you know,
Mario
was just spinning on the track and stuff. But over time, he started to get the smaller movements, the gradual turns, this and that. And knowing when to back up and stuff like that.Share
35:38
And he picked that stuff up. And then he started beating me in races. So he developed really good gross motor skill controls by playing
Mario
Kart
on the Wii
. They've been gamers ever since.Share
Manoush Zomorodi
35:53
So you started with
Mario
Kart
, but at some point you guys discovered Minecraft
, right? Which is pretty much one of the most popular online games ever. But for people who haven't played it, just describe it, Stuart
, what is Minecraft
? How does it work?Share
Stuart Duncan
36:11
So basically you start
Minecraft
. It literally plops you into the middle of a randomly-generated world, so your world will not be the same as anybody else's. And there'll be trees, there'll be oceans, there'll be desserts, there'll be little animals running around, like chickens and cows and stuff.Share
36:26
And then at night, monsters come out. And you're basically just left to fend for yourself in this gigantic, open, infinite world where you can do just about anything your imagination can think of. And that's because everything is kind of made out of these virtual blocks, right?
Share
Manoush Zomorodi
36:42
You can build the house of your dreams with a pool, you can build a mansion, it is like
Lego
on steroids.Share
Stuart Duncan
36:49
And that's kind of the beauty of it. Like, I describe it as there's no wrong way to play. Like, nobody can tell you you're doing it wrong, like yeah, some people do exactly that. They'll make themselves a nice little house with a pool and a garden. Other people build castles and entire medieval villages around them.
Share
37:05
Some people recreate the landscapes in
Lord Of The Rings
. One person built a Nintendo
emulator inside of Minecraft
. So they were actually playing Mario Brothers
inside of Minecraft
because the game is just that robust. There's just so much to it that there is, literally, when I say there's no limit, there really is no limit.Share
Manoush Zomorodi
37:25
But
Stuart
started noticing a downside to Minecraft
.Share
Stuart Duncan
37:29
I saw parents on social media reaching out to other parents asking if their autistic children could play together. And the reason is that when they tried to play on public servers, they kept running into bullies and trolls.
Share
Manoush Zomorodi
37:40
Here's
Stuart Duncan
on the TED
stage.Share
Stuart Duncan
37:43
When you have autism, you behave a little differently sometimes. Sometimes a lot differently. And we all know that a little bit of difference is all you really need for a bully to make you their next target.
Share
37:53
So these terrible, terrible people online, they would destroy everything that they tried to make, they would steal all their stuff, and they would kill them over and over again, making the game virtually unplayable.
Share
38:03
But the worst part, the part that really hurt the most, was what these bullies would say to these kids. They'd call them rejects and defects and retards. And they would tell these kids, some as young as six years old, that society doesn't want them and their own parents never wanted a broken child, so they should just kill themselves.
Share
38:25
And of course these kids you'd understand, they would sign off from these servers angry and hurt, they would break their keyboards. They'd quite literally hate themselves and their parents felt powerless to do anything. So I decided I had to try and help.
Share
38:40
I have autism. My oldest son has autism and both my kids and I love
Minecraft
. So I have to do something. So I got myself a Minecraft
server.Share
Manoush Zomorodi
38:53
Stuart
this is so upsetting to hear what these kids experienced online. They just wanted a fun place to play. But you saw that and you thought, "You know, maybe I can fix this. "Share
Stuart Duncan
39:03
Yeah. Yeah, I don't know, it was starting to break my heart the more and more and more saw it. Because you keep seeing people saying, "I wish there was. I wish there was. I wish there was a server where my kids could play. I wish that they could play without being, I wish there was-"
Share
39:17
And I saw a need for these kids to be able to play together where that sort of behavior wouldn't be allowed. Now keeping in mind, I had a full-time job at the time. I have two kids. I was busy enough already, but to me, I thought maybe we'd get a few hundred people to join the server and it would be something I could do in my spare time. And just give them this place where trolls wouldn't be able to get in, but little did I know what I was getting myself into. There was a whole lot more need for it than I ever realized.
Share
39:49
I spent about two weeks building a really makeshift village. I put a big welcome sign in the sky so that people felt welcomed. I built a lodge on a mountaintop so people could gather just basic little things that, you know, were just the worst compared to any other
Minecraft
server. It's just so bad. But it would, it would be theirs and it would be safe. So I built it up, two weeks later I go on Facebook
and I posted to my friends, which is a list of like, 300 people on Facebook.
Just to see.Share
40:18
And I said, "I started a
Minecraft
server, it's just for children with autism and their families, other people are welcome to join, like, you know, brothers, sisters, friends. "Share
40:28
And that's it, that was like literally two sentences shared with my friends. And I got about 750 emails in the first two days. Word just spread like wildfire. That was just the autism community just came together and went "You need to know about this. "
Share
Manoush Zomorodi
40:46
Stuart
named his Minecraft
world Autcraft, and there were guidelines, rules. No breaking things or stealing, no fighting or killing, no cursing or being mean. And parents and friends would be there to enforce these rules and just make sure kids were having fun.Share
Stuart Duncan
41:05
It was pretty amazing because it just formed this really close, supportive, encouraging family. Like, almost instantly, everybody was there for each other. Everybody — when somebody had a bad day — everybody would be like, "Oh it's OK, you can talk to us if you need to, you know, tell us all about it, "or whatever.
Share
41:22
And a lot of them just never used the chat, never opened up, never talked. They were afraid of awkward situations, of being teased about this or that. But pretty much from day one that Autcraft opened, these kids would come in, be quiet, and the talkative ones would say, "This is how you can do this. This is- You can get this protected and stuff, "and everything. And they would open up.
Share
41:43
I started hearing from parents who said that their nonverbal children were starting to speak. They only talked about
Minecraft
, but they were talking. Some kids were making friends at school for the first time ever. Some were starting to share and even give things to other people.Share
41:57
It was amazing. And that every single parent came to me and said it was because of Autcraft, it's because what you're doing. But why though? How could all of this be just from video game server? Well, that goes back to the guidelines that I used when I created the server. Guidelines that I think help encourage people to be their very best, I hope.
Share
42:17
For example, communication. That could be tough for kids with autism. Could be tough for grownups without autism. But I think that kids should not be punished, they should be talked to. Nine times out of ten, when the kids on the server act out, it's because of something else that's happened in the day, at school or at home. Maybe a pet died.
Share
42:34
Sometimes it's just a simple miscommunication between two children. They don't tell the other person what they're about to do. And so we just offered to help. We always tell the children on the server that we're not mad, and they're not in trouble. We only want to help. And it shows that not only do we care, but we respect them enough to listen to their point of view.
Share
42:50
On most servers, players are rewarded for how well they do in a competition, right? The better you do, the better reward you get. That sort of thing could be automated. The server does the work, the code is there. On Autcraft, we don't do that. We have things like player of the week and CBAs, which is Caught Being Awesome.
Share
43:07
Our top award, the Autism Father Sword — which is named after me, because I'm the founder — is a very powerful sword that you can't get in the game any other way than to show that you completely put the community above yourself, and that compassion and kindness is at the core of who you are. And we've given away quite a few of those swords, actually. I figure if we're gonna watch the server to make sure nothing bad happens, we should also watch for the good things that happen and reward people for them.
Share
Manoush Zomorodi
43:32
So
Stuart,
the world you have described in Autcraft, it sounds fair, almost utopian, for kids with autism and their families. But I guess I need to ask, you know, does this really prepare these kids for reality? I mean, the world is not a nice place where people follow the rules or get called out for bad behavior and then coached to communicate better. Some might think that you're coddling kids in this place and that it will not serve them when they need to fend for themselves in the real world.Share
Stuart Duncan
44:06
Yeah, I hear that a lot. And I also hear, you know, these kids should be learning these social skills face-to-face and not online.
Share
Manoush Zomorodi
44:13
Yeah, so what do you say to that?
Share
Stuart Duncan
44:14
I would say I would prefer a child to make mistakes without fear of being harshly punished for it. I want them to learn from their mistakes, and be encouraged to make mistakes to learn right from wrong, rather than just walk away going, "I don't know what I did wrong. "
Share
44:31
Some of them are in their late teens, early twenties. And it's really hard for them to filter themselves. So that what they say and do is adequate for like, a six or seven year old, but they do it. And you know, like it's a lot of being constricted by rules, just like society. But also having the freedom to be able to make all the mistakes they want and try all the things they want without fear of, you know, just being shut down and hurt and bullied for it.
Share
45:12
I'll give you this example from last Christmas, one year ago. This kid joined the server in 2013, way back when. And I believe he was like, 12 at the time. So you think like, 8 years ago or 7 years ago at the time, he was 12 years old. He had joined the server and he was quiet, and shy, and super scared because he was about to go into high school.
Share
45:34
And so we supported him, and we were there for him, and we talked about it. And it was hard and studying and homework and all this stuff for 4 years. And then after that came university. And then he was really scared about university, and he went through that, and he did all that sort of stuff.
Share
45:49
And then he kind of dropped off the server because he was busy, obviously, and he came back last Christmas, near the end of the year, and I was like, "Hey, I haven't seen you in a while, it's good to see you, "and everything.
Share
45:59
He says, listen, he messaged me privately, he says, "I just wanted to come back. I'm so happy to see the server still here and doing well. So I wanted to tell you that, like, when I joined, I was 12. "
Share
46:08
He said, "I never would have made it through high school. I never would have been able to join the social clubs and do well. "
Share
46:13
He said, "I never, probably never would have went to university and been outspoken and done the stuff I wanted to do if I had never been on Autcraft. And now I'm back specifically to tell you that I just got my dream job at
Lego
headquarters. "Share
46:27
And he's telling me, you know, he says, "I owe so much to our craft because I learned how to make friends, and to join groups, and to be like a team leader on projects, and this and that and you know, get involved with other people and do stuff. "
Share
46:43
And he's like, "I just, I'm so happy to see the Autcraft is still here and doing well. "
Share
46:47
And I was like, "That just made my whole year. "
Share
Manoush Zomorodi
46:51
Like seriously though, how do you do all this
Stuart
? Because on the one hand, you're the admin. So you're actually, you know, technically, you're in charge of all of this. But then it also sounds like you are acting as therapist, and referee, and CEO, and I mean, this is your full-time job now, right?Share
Stuart Duncan
47:12
I wish I only did the hours of a full-time job.
Share
Manoush Zomorodi
47:16
But did you give up your quote, unquote real job, to do this?
Share
Stuart Duncan
47:22
Yeah. My job was struggling. I wasn't able to meet deadlines. I was having to- I was like, in the middle of meetings saying, "Oh, can we continue this a little bit later? There's a player that needs me right now. "
Share
47:33
Yeah. I wasn't able to keep up with the two because literally Autcraft, I wake up usually 7a. m.. And I check on everything, and I'm continuing right up until midnight.
Share
Manoush Zomorodi
47:46
Who is paying you?
Share
Stuart Duncan
47:49
Supporters. I took a huge- I still, to this day, don't make as much as I did as a web developer, but it was enough that I was able to cover my bills. It's, you know, you hear from these parents who say that their children are happy. One person tweeted that their son said that they had the most amazing day, and she never thought she would ever hear that from them again. Like, it's been forever. So that's that reward.
Share
Manoush Zomorodi
48:17
So
Stuart,
I have to ask: Do you have a message for parents of kids who are obsessed with playing Minecraft
, whether they are autistic or not, and maybe these parents just don't get it. Like, what do you say to them?Share
Stuart Duncan
48:31
I don't know how much you know about the autism community but there's one specific expression that comes up a lot, and it's, your child is not ignoring you, they're waiting for you to enter their world. and I can think of no more literal interpretation of that than
Minecraft
.Share
48:48
Like, pick up a controller or mouse and keyboard, and join them in their world, and you will find like the most meaningful bond with your child that you've ever had, because then you start planning builds, you start planning adventures, you're having a great time. And I love nothing more on my server that when I see entire families, four or five people, mom, dad, kids.
Share
49:07
We recently had a mom just join. She's —on her application, I hope she doesn't mind — I'm not selling her name, but she's 60. And she's joining in to play with her son and she's having a great time. And if I could get parents to know one thing, it's simply just join them.
Share
49:26
If 5 and 6 year olds can figure this out, if they can sit in front of a screen and figure out the controls, then you can too. You just have to put in the effort. And it's worth it.
Share
Manoush Zomorodi
49:37
That's
Stuart Duncan
, he runs Autcraft, a Minecraft
server for kids with autism and their families. You can see his full talk at TED. com.Share
49:48
Just thinking back on this episode, we heard how play inspires
Jacob
Collier's unique style and how Yana uses it to change people's minds. My takeaway is — and maybe yours is too — that the spirit of joy, curiosity, and just plain fun can lead to so many unexpected outcomes.Share
50:11
Next week, the final episode in our series, "Work, Play, Rest, "get ready for some unusual ideas about how we relax and reset.
Share
50:24
To see hundreds more
TED
talks. Check out TED. com or the TED
app. This episode was produced by Rachel Faulkner, Fiona Gearan and James Delahoussaye.Share
50:33
It was edited by Sanaz Meshkinpour. Our
TED Radio
production staff also includes Jeff Rogers
, Diva Motishem, Katie Monteleone, and Matthew Cloutier. Our audio engineer is Brian Jarboe, and our intern is Margaret Sereno. Our theme music was written by Ramtin Arablouei. Our partners at TED
are Chris Anderson, Colin Helms, Anna Phelan, Michelle Quint, Sammy Case, and Daniella Bellarezzo.Share
50:59
I'm Manoush Zomorodi, and you've been listening to the
TED Radio Hour
from NPR
.Share
Break
Add podcast
🇮🇹 Made with love & passion in Italy. 🌎 Enjoyed everywhere
Build n. 1.38.1
Manoush Zomorodi
Jacob Collier
Yana Tavanier
Stuart Duncan