Sunday, May 22, 2022 • 22min
What To Expect When You’re Expecting Tom Webster (To Join Sounds Profitable)
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Today on the show, Arielle Nissenblatt chats with soon to be Sounds Profitable partner, Tom Webster. They discuss Tom’s entry into the audio world, what drives him to tell stories with data, how to be into statistics without being a “math” person, and our near and longterm plans for the company.
Here’s our favorite idea from this conversation: Arielle asked Tom to go through the pillars that the team has outlined as important principles for the company and we break them down. This is a mission statement that we want the podcasting public to hold us to.
Links:
Tom Webster https://www.linkedin.com/in/tomwebster/?utm_source=adtech.podnews.net&utm_medium=web&utm_campaign=article
Tom’s recent article for Sounds Profitable https://soundsprofitable.com/update/tom-webster-joins-sounds-profitable
The Download https://pod.link/1608566100
Sounds Profitable: Narrated Articles https://pod.link/1608973524
SquadCast https://squadcast.fm/
Credits:
Hosted by Bryan Barletta https://www.linkedin.com/in/bryanbarletta/
Hosted by Arielle Nissenblatt https://www.linkedin.com/in/arielle-nissenblatt-90348356/
Audio engineering and transcriptions by Ian Powell https://dashboard.whooshkaa.com/449c11e5/episodes/955141/soundandstory.me
Executive produced by Evo Terra https://twitter.com/evoterra of Simpler Media https://simpler.media/
Special thanks to James Cridland https://james.cridland.net/ of Podnews https://podnews.net/
Sounds Profitable Theme written by Tim Cameron https://www.timcameronmusic.com/
See omnystudio.com/listener https://omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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Tom Webster
Arielle Nissenblatt
Transcript
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Arielle Nissenblatt
00:01
Tom Webster is joining Sounds Profitable. What does it all mean? That's what we're talking about today on Sounds Profitable: Ad Tech Applied, with me, Arielle Nissenblatt.
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Tom Webster
00:13
And me, Tom Webster.
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Arielle Nissenblatt
00:16
And podcasters find the perfect ad placement at Libsyn AdvertiseCast marketplace, enjoy huge inventory and full service get started at advertisecast.com.
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Tom Webster
00:26
And special thanks to our sponsors for making Sounds Profitable possible. Check them out by going to soundsprofitable.com and clicking on their logos in the articles.
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Arielle Nissenblatt
00:36
Hey listener, welcome to the show as you know, usually on Sounds Profitable: Ad Tech Applied, Bryan interviews someone in the audio space and then I come on in and set up that interview and then break it down afterwards. Today that is not the case. I'm sitting down with Tom Webster audio guy extraordinaire. How do you like that Tom?
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Tom Webster
00:53
I'm kind of digging it. Anything extraordinaire. Sounds like a pastry of some kind.
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Arielle Nissenblatt
00:58
Tom just announced earlier this month that he's gonna be joining Sounds Profitable as partner. We'll discuss the why the how the what to expect and I'll throw in some more fun things. So let's get to it. Welcome Tom!
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Tom Webster
01:10
Thank you. Thanks for having me.
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Arielle Nissenblatt
01:11
Very excited to chat with you. I just tweeted about it as you know, I love
Twitter
.Share
Tom Webster
01:15
Yeah, you're, you're good at the
Twitter
. I've always said very good Twitter
among many other things.Share
Arielle Nissenblatt
01:22
Well in your Sounds Profitable article called: I Hear Things About The Future Of Audio, which readers can also listen to as a podcast in the Sounds Profitable narrated articles feed, you laid out your entry into the podcast world.
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01:36
You told us how you got started in the early 2000s, you've always been a fan of radio, but after all these years, can you point to why you're drawn to audio above all other media? What is so special about it for you?
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Tom Webster
01:47
So it's, it really stems back from when I was a kid. I grew up in
Northern Maine
and it was pretty remote, we didn't have a whole lot of entertainment options. This was, this was before Netflix if you can believe it.Share
01:59
And uh you know what, I could get on, you know the right night, if the clouds in the atmosphere were right, I could listen to some AM talk stations from
Boston
, which you know where I grew up was like seven or eight hours south of me.Share
02:13
And so at night I would just, I would put a radio a little like transistor radio under my pillow and listen to
Larry King
talk show overnight and things like that. Back when Larry King
did the work.Share
02:26
And other kinds of talk things. So I just always grew up having this great affinity for spoken word audio especially.
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Arielle Nissenblatt
02:34
Did you watch Tv as a kid?
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Tom Webster
02:35
I did, you know, we got where I grew up, we got like three channels and two of them were Canadians. So, I grew up on Canadian TV, which, which warped me some, but I think in a very polite way.
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Arielle Nissenblatt
02:46
Oh, I love that. Yeah, I've been thinking a lot about why I love the podcast space and my working theory now: is I consume knowledge better through my ears and if that had been more available to me as a kid, I think I would have had more confidence as a learner.
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03:07
Whereas I think growing up it was very focused on the visual. So now I'm such a huge advocate for if this works for you, if you want to take in information through your ears, whether it's instructional or entertainment, go for it.
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Tom Webster
03:21
Yeah. And there's also really the, the kind of companion aspect to it, you know, not not that I was a lonely child, but I was an only child and there was certainly something kind of soothing about listening to talk radio at night.
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Arielle Nissenblatt
03:32
Yeah, absolutely. So we can read a lot about Tom Webster and your thoughts on audio and the future of the industry, all over the internet through I hear things through Edison researches, presentations, but what is something in your life that informs the way you approach your profession?
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Tom Webster
03:49
Well, I there's a sort of motto that I think my wife Tamsin came up with for me, you know, it's a proverb: "the second mouse gets the cheese". And I'm very much a second mouse person, I would rather be a little bit more deliberate and thoughtful. I am in my, my regular life and I'm exactly the same way in my public life.
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04:10
So I, you know, I try not to do spicy hot takes, I try to think about things and you know, if I write something that might be a little strident, I'll put it under the pillow overnight and see how I feel about it in the morning. And and that's that's just a philosophy for me.
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Arielle Nissenblatt
04:25
Wow, that's really, yeah, I definitely get the sense that you're a measured person. And I think a lot of people could benefit, including me from taking a more measured approach to spending the night thinking about it. "Do I really need to reply this way or can I just maybe shut up?"
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04:42
Where do you think that comes from for you? Is that, is that your Canadian sensibilities? You're close to Canadian sensibilities?
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Tom Webster
04:48
Well, some of it, I think is ingrained in me from 18 years at Edison Research. I mean, I'm not sure that... I'm probably the least measured person at Edison Research, you know, compared to some of my former colleagues there, I fly off the handle compared to some of them.
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05:05
But Edison has always had this motto that they would rather "be last and right than first".
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05:12
And that's a philosophy that I can see over the span of my career has paid off very well. And it's one I'll take with me into the next phase.
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Arielle Nissenblatt
05:21
Where does your love for breaking down data come from? I think we talked about this a few weeks ago, but you don't consider yourself a math person per se?
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Tom Webster
05:29
No, I have a bachelor's and a master's in literature. I did go back and get an MBA and and you know, that's where I studied statistics, but I've never, ever wanted to be the kind of person who said, "Well I'm not good with numbers, I'm not a numbers person". So I've made myself a numbers person, but to me, numbers on a page without context, without insight, and especially without a story, they're just funny-looking letters.
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05:55
So I've I've really worked hard over my career to try and balance the, you know, I know this is a bit of a myth, but the left and right sides of my brain.
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Arielle Nissenblatt
06:04
Yeah, that's something that I'm definitely working on is... I think I was told as a kid you're not good at math. You know, you have to focus on verbal and stories and whatever, not math is, but I think that's a load of "bs" and I think that we can all learn what we want to learn.
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06:22
And I think good data, storytellers help us break down all that information and help us synthesize that. So what was your guiding principle when you started breaking down data, how did you decide that you were going to make this digestible for folks?
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Tom Webster
06:36
Yeah, I mean when I start going through a report, I'll get all of the raw data and I'll get everything kind of, you know, graphed out like every single thing graphed out in in a particular report.
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06:49
And you know, there's sort of, you know, three principles really when I'm looking through data like that.
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06:54
Number one does the graph tell a very clear, simple and unmistakable story right? With any two people looking at that graph come to the same conclusion. So that's a high priority.
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07:06
Number two. Does it suit the story? Does it fit a narrative? And if it doesn't then it gets cut it just gets cut. It may get sent as an appendix to a client. It may be part of an addendum or whatever. But it's not it's not part of the story.
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07:21
And then another thing I really fixate on are transitions. And if you can't come up with a brilliant transition from you know, one data point to another one slide to another, then those two don't belong together and you kind of go back to the drawing board.
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07:35
So I'm very focused on the story because that's how for people who you know - mistakenly or not - assume that they're not good with numbers.
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07:45
That's how the insights are going to be transferred and that's what's going to give them the feeling that they got their money's worth. That. A survey was actionable for them that research actually drove some positive action. Right? So I'm very, very focused on data storytelling.
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Arielle Nissenblatt
08:00
So let's give an example. You spoke at Podcast Movement Evolutions in March and I, the data point that sticks out to me was that between 2021 and 2022, I believe it was listening went down. Is that right?
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Tom Webster
08:15
Yeah. And you know, that's a really good example of how it's definitely in my DNA And and in the DNA of the company I'm leaving and I will, you know, if it's not in the DNA it Sounds Profitable, it sure as heck will be now. That you don't just throw a data point out there, especially one that's going to be challenging to people unless you've done the work.
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Arielle Nissenblatt
08:35
And there was a gasp in the room.
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Tom Webster
08:37
We definitely, I knew that was going to happen. So I knew I couldn't just put that out there and say, "Oh and things went down and now onto smart speakers". That wasn't gonna fly. So, you know, I went back with the Edison team and we corroborated that with the share of ear research that Edison does with the Edison podcast metrics research that they do.
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08:58
And we found all kinds of telltale signs that just that pointed to a segment of the population, a segment of the population returning to workplaces returning to school, returning to taking their kids to school.
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09:14
And so a segment of kind of casual listening to podcasting really got carved out as people, as people got busy and, and once all of those data points were corroborated, then the gears fell into place on that story and it just makes a ton of sense.
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09:27
And having reported that now I'm getting email from lots and lots of people who are saying, "Yeah, we're seeing that in our data to, we see that to", nobody wanted to say it.
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Arielle Nissenblatt
09:37
Yeah. So you presented a slide, you presented a data point that might have been shocking to some, but you made sure to not just leave it there and let us languish in fear instead. You, you contextualized it and you said here is why it's happening and here is maybe not like a solution out of it, but here's why it's not that bad.
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Tom Webster
09:56
Yeah, I guess I'm podcasting, comfortable, warm blanket; it's gonna be okay.
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Arielle Nissenblatt
10:01
Okay, so one year from now Tom... What would a successful year one as Sounds Profitable partner look like to you? What would you like to accomplish in the next 365 ish days?
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Tom Webster
10:14
Well, I think two things really stand out at the top of my list and Bryan may have other goals and you may have other goals.
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10:21
I think, you know, we are, we are planning a significant quarterly research series, sort of the pillars around, which a lot of what we're doing are going to be built and we intend that research to be available to all free and each study to be something that genuinely drives the entire medium forward and removes obstacles for all podcasters.
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10:44
So we're very driven by that not to have things be proprietary or you know, devoted to a certain viewpoint. We really want to see where the data, where the data takes us on, the things that are genuinely obstacles for people to grow the podcasting space.
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11:01
And I think the other, you know, maybe two other things that that I would like to see number one, I would like to see the podcasting space grow and that's not just the audience, but also success. You know, Bryan and I have both been able to carve out a pretty good living from just working in podcasting and I want that for more people.
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11:21
So as a sort of a follow-up to that. The third thing is I would love a year from now to have a whole bunch of people come back and say, "You know what, I was able to make a career out of this, at least in part thanks to Sounds Profitable, I was able to actually make some money. I was able actually to make enough to get this thing to take this next step". Whatever it is, I would love to enable careers.
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11:48
I think right now podcasting is it's very concentrated in the big networks and I've worked for the big networks for a very long time, but I want to see the entire garden grow and I want to see more people flourish.
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Arielle Nissenblatt
12:01
And that's creators, indie creators creators who are part of larger networks, obviously that looks different across the board. How do you see independent creators growing as the podcast space grows?
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Tom Webster
12:13
I think independent creators have done a pretty good job tapping into direct support, right? Having passionate listeners who will directly support what it is that they're doing either in a subscription model or a donation model. I think, you know, if you're good at what you're doing and you can attract an audience and engage that audience and they're passionate about it, direct support has always been, has always been there for you.
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12:37
And for some independent podcasters, sponsorships have also been there for them. You know, maybe there's a particular sponsor that just believes in what they do and they're kind of stuck there with them.
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12:47
But there's also an entire universe of advertising that uh is not really filtering into independent podcasts and it's, It's kind of stuck in the top, you know, top 300 or top 500 shows that don't have any advertising inventory anymore.
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13:06
And people just don't really know how to, you know, to run ads and sort of make all that work. And I think it's a combination of education and, and tools and maybe some mindset, but I think, you know, the
IAB
came out with an estimate that podcasting would be a $4 billion 2024, that's not a prophecy. That's not guaranteed to happen. And I don't think that does happen frankly, if we don't find a way to bring in the thousands and thousands of independent creators on the vast long tail of podcasting to participate in that economy.Share
Arielle Nissenblatt
13:43
So advertisers brands take a chance, take a chance on the independent creators who have strong audiences, who might have 2000-5000 downloads per episode, maybe even smaller, but really they have engagement, and I think that's a big, big driving force behind what might make a good ad partner.
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13:60
Tom what is your and Bryan's plan for this statement that I read in your article: "we want creators and executives at the highest levels in podcasting to be as diverse as the incredible audience for podcasting. And we want podcasting companies and independents alike to be able to profit from their efforts in a fair marketplace"
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14:19
Obviously, I also want this being part of Sounds Profitable and I want to help make it happen. But as the leader as partner, how do you see this going forward?
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Tom Webster
14:28
Well, the second half for podcasting companies and independence to both be able to profit in a fair marketplace, that's kind of what I just talked about. I think, you know, there's a lot of arbitrage and podcasting, a lot of, you know, there's a lack of information, clarity and transparency across the board and that's something that we want to break down.
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14:49
But I do want to highlight that first part, which is that we want creators and executives in podcasting to be as diverse as the incredible audience for podcasting. The audience for podcasting right now is at least as diverse as the
US
population and actually very likely going to become more diverse than the US
population as a whole.Share
15:09
And one thing that, and I know you've heard us say this Bryan and I are 1000% passionate about is, you know, we are the last two white guys that we want out there. And you know, we're being asked all the time to help events program, help get speakers and things like that. And we want to be like the last two white dudes.
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15:31
We've had, we had a good run, but there are so many so many creators that are just not getting heard because people are kind of, you know, defaulting back to the same voices, the same speakers, the same faces and I've benefited from that and I'm fully aware of that. So that's something that we're very focused on.
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Arielle Nissenblatt
15:52
I want to break down the pillars of Sounds Profitable that we identified that you wrote about in your article: Sounds Profitable. So we've got insightful content, industry-leading research, unmissable events and peerless advisory services.
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16:07
So I know behind the scenes that it took some time to come up with the wording for those. So talk to me about some of your word choices and what really what made you word things this way. So "insightful content": what do you mean by that?
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Tom Webster
16:21
Well, I think, you know, and you're a big part of that. We have some wonderful writers that Sounds Profitable. I'm gonna be folding my newsletter. I hear things into Sounds Profitable. We have a great team, you know, with you and Evo,
Evo Terra
working with us behind the scenes, Kayla and, you know, some amazing writers. So we have a high bar for content.Share
16:45
You know, we're not, we're not a daily news, breaking news kind of site. You know, we all have the opportunity to to really think about things. I know I just submitted my article for, you know, for May 24th, 11 days early. So, had a nice chance to think about that. So I'm trying, you know, I'm new. I'm new.
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17:07
So, industry-leading research. I talked about a little bit and even before we get to our quarterly research series, we are going to put out a study in June that I'm really passionate about, which is called The Creators. And it's going to be really the first credible scientific breakdown of the demographics and other kind of behavioral information of the people who actually make podcasts. It's not the easiest data to get, We have gotten it in partnership here with Edison Research.
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17:38
Unmissable events. We'll have more to say about that very, very soon. But we in the spirit of what it is that we're trying to do to make podcasting better, we want to have gatherings where people who are committed to doing that have a, have a frank exchange of views and hopefully write some business with each other. So that's something that we're planning soon.
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17:60
And peerless advisory services. I think you know Bryan has been doing this for a while, Bryan is an absolute genius with ad tech and advertising technology and monetization. You know, he's so clear about breaking down the kind of funnel and the stack for a company.
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18:18
And I have a long history of audience research and branding and and things like that. So we think together you know, it was hard for me to be a consultant per se at Edison, I was really tied to a research project. But now I think we have the opportunity to talk to everybody in the space and learn from them and hopefully they can learn from us as well.
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Arielle Nissenblatt
18:40
So those are four pillars that all sound very exciting that are all gonna come together for the benefit of the podcast industry. Is there anything that was on the table that you had to leave off if there were two Tom Websters to Bryan Barnettas, would there be a 5th pillar?
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Tom Webster
18:56
Man, I don't know. I'm glad there aren't too Tom Websters. I think one of them, one of them would be miserable for you and for me.
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19:05
Yeah I don't know. I think uh we really want to focus on on those four for right now. Uh if there was 5th pillar then I would replace
Elvis Duran
in the morning at Z100 Morning Show, but that's the thing I have never done by the way. So it's a mythical pillar.Share
Arielle Nissenblatt
19:23
We should do it. We should just we should do a prank episode that's all, "Hey are you in traffic right now? We've got the great, we've got the best song for you". Ahaha.
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19:33
So question for you. I've been thinking about this as we've been recording. Good data is a series that Kayla writes and it's kind of playing with the idea that there's a lot of data out there, how do we break it down in a way that's digestible. What is bad data?
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Tom Webster
19:47
So I'm gonna give you a bit of a wishy-washy answer here and actually this is the focus of my May 24 Sounds Profitable column when it comes out.
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19:57
There's very little bad, bad data like bad, bad dog down data. It's mostly there's no perfect data. Most of what's bad is how it's reported and how it's presented, right?
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20:10
You know, you could do a
Twitter
poll and just say, "Hey, you know, click on my tweet and you know, tell me what you listened to yesterday".Share
20:18
The only thing that would be bad about that data is if you said, "54% of podcasters listened to..." Like no, you can't do that based on that. Right? So it's more in the reporting.
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20:29
I'm convinced that I can find the value of any piece of data if it has been transparently and clearly identified as exactly how you got it, where it came from and who you talked to. It's, it's more in the reporting that makes data bad. So and I think Kayla is doing a fantastic job breaking down the good data.
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Arielle Nissenblatt
20:50
I am curious what are you listening to right now that is knocking your socks off?
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Tom Webster
20:54
You know, I'm a big sports podcast listener. So I listened to a ton of you know,
Bill Simmons
and Dan and, you know, various NBA
podcasts. I listen to a music podcast called the Anjunadeep Edition. I don't miss that.Share
21:08
And I've been getting more into audio fiction lately. I've been listening to ars PARADOXICA which I know has been out for a while and catching up on the White Fault. So that's kind of what's on my list right now.
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Arielle Nissenblatt
21:18
Well there you have it folks that is what Tom Webster is listening to that he hears things Those are the things that he hears.
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21:24
Tom, thank you so much for joining me today.
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Tom Webster
21:27
Thank you.
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