Thursday, Aug 5, 2021 • 55min
Since You've Asked- Ben Harper
Play Episode
This week, Judy Collins talks to singer-songwriter, multi-instrumentalist and social activist Ben Harper.
Read more
Talking about
Speakers
(2)
Judy Collins
Ben Harper
Transcript
Verified
Break
Judy Collins
00:59
Hi, this is
Judy Collins
. And you're listening to the Since You've Asked podcast today. I'm talking to singer-songwriter, multi-instrumentalist and social activist, the great Ben Harper
. He has a new instrumental album called Winter Is For Lovers
. I'm looking forward to hearing all about it. Please welcome to the program. Ben Harper
, I am so thrilled to have you here with me tonight. Ben
, what a privilege.Share
Ben Harper
01:27
It is my privilege. And I have... I'm gonna work really hard to not answer any question with a question 'cause I would have so much to ask you.
Share
Judy Collins
01:34
Well, I'll send you all my books.
Share
Ben Harper
01:38
Your new album is extraordinary.
Winter Stories
is perfect.Share
Judy Collins
01:44
Well, that's that's such a compliment coming from you. I have looked over and listened to have listened to you for a long time. I told one of my brothers that I was going to work with you today and he said, oh my God, he's so good.
Share
01:57
He's so versatile. He's so gifted. He sings so beautifully and you can understand all the words with our family. That's a big compliment. I want to ask you some questions to start off. First of all, How are you doing in this pandemic.
Ben
?Share
Ben Harper
02:13
I'm adjusting best I can. Trying to land on my feet.
Share
Judy Collins
02:18
Well you've landed on your feet beautifully with this new album that you have out? It's a wonderful album. And I want you to tell us a little bit about it because it's an album that doesn't have lyrics on it. It's an instrumental album. What what, what caused you to think about that and do that album for us?
Share
Ben Harper
02:37
I have long been a fan of solo instrumentation. Flamenco solo, flamenco guitar, solo, classical guitar, solo,
the John Fahey
, Leo Kottke
, Michael Hedges
and that school. And it is on, it's been on my radar for a while. And though it sounds like a record one would record in isolation. It's been done for a year. I've had this record completed for a year and set to be released when we released it this year, this fall.Share
Judy Collins
03:10
Well then it wasn't inspired by the pandemic, but on life on life's terms, I suppose
Winter Is For Lovers
is what it's called. And it's beautiful. It's impressive. It has very different songs for different feelings. And the Manhattan one was the one I was going to ask you about, what is that, about that beautiful piece.Share
Ben Harper
03:32
It just feels to me like the way it sounds hopefully like man, well, it sounds like
Manhattan
feels to me it was written in Manhattan
and it just for some reason to me has the rhythm of, you know, walking from downtown to midtown to uptown.Share
Judy Collins
03:49
And what was the
Inland Empire
?Share
Ben Harper
03:53
Inland Empire
, where I'm from, where I was raised and it's where my family to this day has a folk music shop which I grew up called the Folk music center and that is in California
, in southern California
and southern California
.Share
Judy Collins
04:09
That is a remarkable place and it, it has so many of the stars of stage and screen, the people that I grew up with in the folk movement early on, you must have been a baby when you first started listening to
Leonard Cohen
for instance.Share
Ben Harper
04:24
Well you and I are in a very, very privileged, well it's not a card carrying club, but it's a club nonetheless of people. At first it struck me and then I recognized after a while what a privilege it is when kids come up to me and say, I grew up with my parents listening to you in our home a lot enough.
Share
04:48
And at first I was taken aback when that started because that meant one thing and one thing only to me, instead of hearing what it really meant which was the privilege of that.
Share
Judy Collins
04:59
It's an amazing thing where the music goes and where your music has gone is simply remarkable music.
Share
Ben Harper
05:08
Just to say, I have grown up, it was in my home, oh my just to say "Hello" and she said "Mom, if you could ask
Judy
one thing, what would it be", and my mother wanted me to tell you, she wanted me... she said, "No questions. Just appreciation for one of the more brave, one of the most brave voices in music".Share
Judy Collins
05:35
I'm very touched. I'm very touched. Please tell your mother that I'm grateful to her for this beautiful son that she gave us. But also for this history that she she and her husband. Now you have a very, I find exotic background. Your mom uh your father very different.
Share
Ben Harper
05:56
Yeah, my mom is jewish, my dad is black.
Share
Judy Collins
06:00
And you have some
Cherokee
in there, I think.Share
Ben Harper
06:03
I did my
23andme
just a little bit native American. It's in there.Share
Judy Collins
06:08
But it's enough! Now as I've thought about and listened again to so many of the beautiful songs that you've done. Of course I am struck by
Bob Marley
song that you did high tide low tide. Can you tell us about that? And the experience with finding that song and recording it with the Jack
the wonderful Jack
, Jack Johnson
.Share
Ben Harper
06:31
Yes, dear friend.
Bob
is one of those, one of, one of the rare handful of artists who just made every song and every record count. It's always hard to pick which Bob Marley, Bob
Marley And The Wailers
song to cover because they're all just so good. But high tide stuck out as being a song about friendship kinship being connected, staying connected through the highs and the lows and my goodness.Share
07:03
You get to a certain age and your closest friends have driven you as crazy as anybody and you still have to love them and you've driven them as crazy as they've driven through through it all. You stay connected. And that song just stated it perfectly for
Jack
and I. So we set out to cover it.Share
Judy Collins
07:24
It's beautiful, it's beautiful. And I noticed, I wonder if you're going to be doing this, Are you gonna be at
Red Rocks
this here or next year?Share
Ben Harper
07:35
We're counting on it, But I'm not this year, this quarantine has taught me one thing. It's a well a to not take what was for granted and be, not to have not to heighten my expectations for the near future. In other words, I'm not sure if 2021 is going to go off. I'm not sure if people are going to, I don't think people will be convening indoors In the 2500 seats and below. I don't think that's going to happen.
Share
Judy Collins
08:06
Well,
Red Rocks
is an amazing place. Of course it's, it's my hometown.Share
Ben Harper
08:11
20% 20 if if, say
Red Rocks
at a 20% capacity socially distanced and may be masked. Um, but is that the best way to see a show and the minute a couple of masks come off, they all come off. I don't know where to land. That Judy
do you make?Share
Judy Collins
08:30
I like you. I've had many concerts lined up And they've all, they haven't, they haven't been trampled. They've been rescheduled and I'm sure that's true about you too. So, we have this this group of magicians in our lives scrambling to find the next place for the concepts that we were supposed to do in 2020.
Share
08:52
Am I right? And they're working hard on our behalf. And I want to tell you that your support team, I think is remarkable. I want to congratulate you on, by the way, on having your own album. Now tell us about how that happened as far as the label. Yes.
Share
Ben Harper
09:12
Yes. Well, I finally met someone who looks and views the industry and music and a large part of the world the way I do. And it was a great fit for she and I to start Mad Bunny Records.
Share
Judy Collins
09:26
It's wonderful. Mad Bunny. I love it. And I remember of course that you signed a lifetime contract with
Virgin Records
those years ago. I think I did the same thing with Elektra. It feels like a lifetime, but I'm glad you've gone out on your own because it's it's refreshing.Share
09:42
It's exciting. It's dynamic. And I must say that when I was going back through your material, I also have to tell you how much I love the innocent criminals. What a great group and how musical and exciting they are. And I'm so glad you're still working with them. That's very exciting.
Share
Ben Harper
10:03
It's the time of my life. And to it's a fascinating time when you hit that place in your life where you can actually learn from what you've done instead of just doing what you're doing. And I I'm having the time of my life with them.
Share
Judy Collins
10:23
It's wonderful. It's so wonderful to have people in your life that you've worked with, that you as you said, you've gone through the ups and downs the high tides and the low tides. I love, by the way, um this recording with the innocent criminals of a song called, Call It What It Is. Tell us about that song. It's a fabulous song.
Share
Ben Harper
10:45
Thank you for saying. So, thank you for hearing it. Wow.
Share
Judy Collins
10:49
I want to sing it. That's what I want to do.
Share
Ben Harper
10:53
Ah yeah, you know, that's it's it's an issue among any, there's a lot of issues that are important to me, none more so than social justice in the name of police brutality, and just the cultural mistreatment of black people on a daily basis, which goes for the most part, not unnoticed, but undervalued and by being unrestricted, it's disrespected.
Share
11:33
I wish somebody could be in my body and travel the world the way I do. And it's one thing when people, you know who
Ben Harper
is, but most people don't.Share
Judy Collins
11:46
We want more and more people to know who
Ben Harper
is, there's no excuse for not knowing who Ben Harper
is.Share
Ben Harper
11:53
Well, it's the weather said, I have to, I have to convince people who I am people, when I tell people, they don't believe me and I am so far from the likeness of who I was when I was in my 20's. At any rate, it's it's hard to either be invisible or scorned and what's in between invisibility and being being being treated as a second class citizen, one or the other.
Share
12:25
There's so much real estate in between that you just you can't it's hard to get your your found find your foundation in your own, in your own land, in your own country. It's very frustrating and and on the world platform around the world globally. So just to bring it back home and bring it in for a landing song, like Call It What It Is.
Share
12:49
Is basically just doing that and saying, you know, you you just can't you can't treat you can't treat indigenous people, you can't treat people who have the same rights as you do in this world any less than you would want to be treated, whether it's law enforcement or just you know, I I live in
Silver Lake
California
and I see more Black Lives Matter
signs in my neighborhood than I can count yet.Share
13:16
I'll walk around my neighborhood and no one waved when people walk by me, they duck their head, they put their head down and they don't and I see them wave to the people who were in front of me walking and then they come to me and they duck their head yet there's
Black Lives Matter
signs everywhere in my neighborhood.Share
13:34
So it's racism. It it's somewhere in us that it's just so camouflaged. It's so it's so genetically camouflaged within us that um you just we just want to shake it, shake it out into the light, throw some sun on it and let it finally wither away once and for all. So hopefully whether it's a song or a conversation, we can work towards that.
Share
Judy Collins
14:05
You have been gifted with a tremendous talent and you have found a way I see and think and here in your music to transcend these moments of difficulty and they have been must have been terrifying. And through your life challenging and what you've done is to make it clear that you are first and foremost an artist.
Share
14:32
I think that's terribly important. We know we know that that the artistic life does all kinds of things to transcend difficulties that happened to us places we were born what color our skin was our, what our attitudes were about life.
Share
14:49
And you and I were both born in families where you had this extended view of the world where you took in every kind of person, no matter what they looked like because of their talent, because of their quality, because of their uniqueness. So I think this is marvelous.
Share
15:04
We're in the middle of of of a river that is moving towards more light and more more perpetual acceptance and joy and you're contributing to that. I see this in your in your in your life, in your musical tastes, in your choices. I know you've had three Grammys in your lifetime and that's a wonderful thing.
Share
Ben Harper
15:26
They're so hard to get, aren't they?
Share
Judy Collins
15:29
They're hard to get now. Your first one was with the
Blind Boys Of Alabama
, I think. How does that happen?Share
Ben Harper
15:38
You know? And I asked myself the same thing because we throw it out of the universe as loud and as proud as I can and hope that it's received by the people that you want it to be received by. And sure enough, I wrote a song called I Shall Not Walk Alone and it somehow was placed before them and they covered it.
Share
15:59
And that their cover of that song brought our interconnectedness and then we toured together. We did some shows together. And that camaraderie that was built from from first the song to the shows, found its way into the studio and I ended up writing and producing a record for them and with them called
There Will Be A Light
, wonderful song and it made it all the way up the hill.Share
Judy Collins
16:26
Wonderful song.
Share
Ben Harper
16:28
Thank You.
Share
Judy Collins
16:28
This is where the talent you have and the humanitarian concerns that you have reached out and merged with the rest of your life, the artistic part, the deep concerns that we all have politically socially. And I had, I was fascinated by the breadth of your songwriting. Where did you come to songwriting?
Share
16:56
I know you heard a lot of these people that I also grew up with, as you mentioned, and your mother and father were re prescient to have this club where these extraordinary people came and you could be exposed to them, which happened to me in a slightly different way, but I landed in the village and it was a similar experience, right? And I was looking over, of course, one of my favorite songs, which I love is Diamonds on the Inside. It's such a good song. We don't like to hear it right this minute.
Share
Ben Harper
17:30
Well, just to take a moment to recognize, you know, it it's the age of of of hyperbole and grandiosity when it comes to state in one's point and I don't want to fall into that trap for a minute.
Share
Judy Collins
17:44
No, you won't.
Share
Ben Harper
17:45
Also imperative that I recognize in my world you are royalty, my royalty. So when I hear you say these, when this I have to... I have to remain poised, gather my wits. But I also, this might even get edited out of the podcast.
Share
Judy Collins
18:06
I doubt it.
Share
Ben Harper
18:07
I have to let you know that that your words fall on me so wonderfully heavily and and it's a privilege to hear that. And yes, my my upbringing in the the the I'd go as far as to call it exotic, but at the very least it's eccentric, you know, with with sure, you know, on the bookshelf Noam chomsky, the joy of Yiddish cooking and
Alex Haley's
roots, just all in a row, this is... this is my, my world.Share
18:46
So you can imagine the songs that are gonna, if if I were to become a songwriter, which I did, what's going to come out of that? It's madness. It's madness, I mean, and to be black and white, it's a living civil war. Yeah, I mean, it's madness. I wouldn't wish it on anyone, but here it is and that's how it sounds.
Share
Judy Collins
19:12
I have been fortunate because of this very good word, eccentric life that I've led in terms of artists and I've worked with extraordinary artists of every color and uh of every background I would say. And one of the things that was prescient about my own upbringing, my father was a musician and he was also blind.
Share
19:37
So he would say things like how would I, what what what use do I have for prejudice. I wouldn't know what you look like. I don't know what color you are. It doesn't make any difference to me. So we were all raised at a very um politically active table, we were all urged to make a difference to march to have our voices out there.
Share
19:58
So when I hit the folk music scene, I was completely ready to march and to Go to
Mississippi
, which I did in 1964 to register voters. One of the great experience of my life was to travel with Fannie Lou Hamer
in a little car where we were actually integrated. We were told not to integrate of course, because that was dangerous given the circumstances of our situation and of the four beautiful three beautiful young men who were lost in that time.Share
20:28
But
Fannie Lou Hamer
was a miracle, you know, and she'd step out on the, on the, in the middle of a small town in Mississippi
and put her foot down and start singing, you know, uh this little light of mine and everybody would come out to the windows and come out to vote because they were so frightened and she really made them, gave them courage.Share
20:51
So all kinds of experiences like this in my life, whether it's being on the road with with different cultures, different people from different cultures, different backgrounds, maybe everybody should be a singer-songwriter, people who don't want to hear it, don't want you to have it.
Share
Ben Harper
21:12
So they're not gonna be pleased anyway, you're so earnest and what do you think music can do? I said, listen, I'm not claiming that music can do something, but I'm also claiming that it's more than doing nothing, it's more than doing nothing and as, and as long as my contribution to that sound is more than doing nothing. I sleep real good.
Share
Judy Collins
21:39
Yeah, it's amazing. I have I have another set of questions for you that I want us to talk about because this, this kind of um, broad reaching area of your songwriting. How did you, when did you write your first song? I hear that you actually had a performance when you were just a little boy? How old were you?
Share
Ben Harper
22:04
Well that was more, more school and choir and performance based, you know, the songs from the theater because I love singing in choirs and, and in school plays and
Annie Get Your Gun
and, and I was, you know, the one odd black cast in white schools.Share
22:24
So it always kind of stuck out, but it was always fun to give it, you know, everybody made, they put on their best sort of social graces and it, but inquired, it was wonderful because I always felt comfortable in the choruses and the school choirs.
Share
Judy Collins
22:41
I'll bet you got the good part.
Share
Ben Harper
22:42
Well, I will say this when I auditioned with Carly Moultrie who's still teaching music wonderfully in my hometown
Claremont
and I stood up. I just knew I wanted to sing, I had to sing. She stepped up.Share
22:57
She said, "Okay, well what are you gonna sing today? " I said, "Well I don't really know any songs". "She said, well why don't you go pick out a song and come back tomorrow 'cause we'll be auditioning for choir both days". I said, "Okay, fine. " This was in front of the whole school. So I went back and I learned a little help from my friends, oh, somebody and imagine now I get, I've played it with
Ringo
numerous times. So mission accomplished there.Share
Judy Collins
23:24
That's right.
Share
Ben Harper
23:26
So I went back, I learned little help from my friends every
Ringo
inflection. I learned it overnight. My first kind of wood shedding as a 10 year old went back in front of the school audition the next day and I do remember when I after the first, what would you do if I sang out of tune?Share
23:47
Would you stand up and walk up and I wanted that young on me, you know, and I do and the teacher just stopped and she lets you stop and she gave me this. No, she's okay. You stand over there. And that was my 1st audition that I actually got. You know, I was, I got my solo part.
Share
Judy Collins
24:11
Did you ever have nerves about singing in public?
Share
Ben Harper
24:15
To this day?
Share
Judy Collins
24:17
Even now, even after this huge career and writing and producing and singing in public.
Share
Ben Harper
24:23
Yes, but I've come to reconcile that in that it's not so much my nerves about whether I can or can't the nerves reside for me in a place of I want this to be the best I've ever done and anything less will be a letdown.
Share
Judy Collins
24:44
So that resolves it for you. If you give yourself a level that you want to be at.
Share
Ben Harper
24:52
Yes. Especially in the name of sobriety and not having had anything to drink or smoke the night before. So I'm coming into this now at my age as sober as the day I was born. And when I... especially since that, but even before that, but especially, and specifically in the name of sobriety, I'm confident that I can do what I did yesterday.
Share
25:25
So that's not... I've passed the nerves of whether I whatever, wherever stage fright resides in that part of the brain that says can you or can't you, I'm past. But the challenge of wanting it to be the best version of every song for 20 songs in a row is where I tense up a little bit.
Share
Judy Collins
25:48
Yeah. Well it'll get better.
Share
Ben Harper
25:54
Where are you with that?
Share
Judy Collins
25:56
I'll tell you when I'm terrified, absolutely terrified when I have a particular thing that's going on. For instance, if I don't know the lyrics and I'm struggling with something I don't know otherwise, you know, I'm like you, I was performing since I was a very young child and I was performing in all kinds of situations because my father was on the radio.
Share
26:19
So I sang on this radio show was saying in the school shows, I sang in the.
Share
Ben Harper
26:23
And was that in
Seattle
or Denver
?Share
Judy Collins
26:25
It started and it started in
Denver
, although he was actually first I was born in Seattle
moved to Hollywood
where he also had his radio show in Hollywood,
and I was already studying at the age of five, I was playing the piano and he would drop me out on the radio on his radio shows.Share
26:44
So I was in the school shows, I was practicing. I would perform for my teachers, master classes because I started playing. But I had a similar kind of thing. I got the the
Great American Songbook
, not The Beatles
because they came later in my life, but to make a pun. But I was always performing so fundamentally.Share
27:06
The only thing that bothers me. I was in a panic for a week, about four weeks ago when I had to do a show that was a Zoom show for the
University Of New Mexico
. But the problem was I never let go of my lyrics. I always have lyrics in front of me. Billy Joel
said to me, "You can't not have the lyrics because as you get through your life, you're going to have problems with lyrics. " We all want to. I mean the more songs you take on of course remember there's only so much room up there, there's so there's only so much room in the brain. And so my and I was panicked because I didn't have the lyrics and I didn't know how we were going to set this up and I, I obsessed about this for a week. And finally, they figured it out. They jerry-rigged the situation where I could put my lyrics.Share
27:54
But otherwise I don't have the earth-shattering nauseating anxiety that some of my peers have and I know about them. They won't even get on a plane to fly somewhere because they're too nervous too. So I have other things that I have to deal with. But I don't have that one, which is excellent. What I...
Share
Ben Harper
28:14
I know what you mean. The Innocent Criminals, God bless their hearts, love to force me to change my set list. They don't want me to take the easy route. Speaking of lyric sheets so that they keep they pushed me and that's a good thing to and friendship because they want to keep it fresh for themselves, even.
Share
Judy Collins
28:42
I have had a number of pianists maybe, you know,
Joseph Schubert
and other other other gentlemen, mostly always men, not women, I don't know, no reason not women. Just men who are just fantastic. And my current musical director, Russ Walden has told me, I mean, I knew it when I was doing it, but he said in those years, in that trust between being 45 and 65, I would forget a lyric and then he said, I would make up the lyric and it would rhyme.Share
29:14
The whole thing would rhyme, would be the wrong lyric. But it would all rhyme and come to an end. I've lost that neck by the way and I don't know what I said. But now of course this is important.
Share
Ben Harper
29:26
This is important to me right here.
Share
Judy Collins
29:28
Because when I drop you go ahead and then I'll know you tell me...
Share
29:31
No you tell me what this reminded you of?
Share
Ben Harper
29:33
Well, it reminds me that my band knows that I find missing lyric? We go back, we're going back around.
Share
Judy Collins
29:40
Yeah, we'll go back around.
Share
Ben Harper
29:42
Because I am not dropping the lyrics.
Share
Judy Collins
29:44
You know, you don't want to drop the lyric, no.
Share
Ben Harper
29:46
Even if I have to extend the version of the song, I'd rather do that because they know I'm going to go back and get it. Even if I have to walk over and ask sometimes to have... My drummer remembers... my drummer knows my words better than me. I should just give him mike. He could just sing ghost, ghost sitting behind me. So if I do drop it will be there! But I get a couple of times a year I'll ask my drummer, "Give me that", you know, with the guitar in hand and he's bashing the symbol that "Give me the lyrics! ", you know?
Share
Judy Collins
30:16
And I look over at rush to say what's the lyric" The last line to send in the clowns. I mean, this is a song of course. And he'll say it!
Share
30:29
So we've had of course both of us have had extremely I would say privilege. We've had privileged lies because we've lived as artists now in that regard. What what is it? I mean in a way, standing in the shadows of Motown when you worked on that collection? How did you feel about being in that place at that time and doing that? I mean, this is historic what you were involved with.
Share
Ben Harper
31:05
Yeah, that was one of the first moments where I looked around and said to myself that "Okay, you I don't know where you're going, but you have arrived here. Don't miss this moment. Take it in. "
Share
31:21
And you know, the same cats playing that, that intro to heard it through the grapevine who played it for
Gladys Knight
and it from Mark, he's there playing it for me. He wrote that intro to.Share
Judy Collins
31:34
How extraordinary.
Share
Ben Harper
31:36
Yeah. And and that that was just and also, I mean, you talk about humble pie because I was up there with
Joan Osborne
and I just was like, "Okay, well you got to bring your a game today. "Share
Judy Collins
31:51
You do, you do.
Share
31:54
He has done amazing things,
Ben Harper
. He has achieved, I think a notoriety of fame, a level of artistry and of incredible gifts that he can give to other people and that's also the life that you live and you're able to give out this music which inspires people, which I know I have thoughts about being on the stage and singing and I have ideas about what happens between myself and the audience.Share
32:26
Do you have a view of that? How do you affect people? What do you think about your audiences?
Share
Ben Harper
32:31
I think there I... one of my favorite parts about the audience that I see in front of me and have seen over the course of going on 30 years now is that they are nonconformists.
Share
Judy Collins
32:50
Ah!
Share
Ben Harper
32:51
They are inspiring and they set them and they are inspiring in the conversation that I have with them off the stage and they're inspiring in a way that sets the bar consistently higher for me.
Share
33:11
They don't they're not easily amused.
Share
Judy Collins
33:14
No, true.
Share
Ben Harper
33:17
And they are clear when they appreciate something I've done and don't I haven't I some bands that I know have fan clubs and I have what I affectionately referred to as the anti-fan club because I along with my fans wouldn't want to be a member of a club that would have me.
Share
Judy Collins
33:45
Exactly.
Share
Ben Harper
33:47
And I called that there there there they are known as F. R. I. C. Front Row Innocent Criminals.
Share
Judy Collins
33:54
That's great.
Share
Ben Harper
33:55
And without without a specific email or any fan club card any specific uh parameters it exists and it's strong within the community. And I would I wouldn't sit and have a beer because I don't do that anymore.
Share
34:17
But I would sit while they have a beer and I would drink a
Seltzer
with them at any you know and have many times there are people I enjoy hanging out with on and off the stage and it's The privilege of them even being there is never ever lost on me for one second.Share
Judy Collins
34:37
Okay. I have a I'm going to repeat a line that I heard in a song recently because my fan club, if there is such a thing. They're the people that sit in the audience and they're silent for a couple of hours. People don't stand up and scream at my shows. They might next time I do sing, but they don't usually do that.
Share
35:00
They're usually meditating. You know, one of the reasons I never was asked to sing in some of the big gambling joints is that people after my concerts that have to be meditating rather than shouting and screaming of they are The line that I heard was "Don't be surprised if everyone you meet is broken".
Share
35:32
And I'm in a credit this it's a line which I heard from the fellow that I know Robert and I was so blown away by it. Because I thought most of the people, I mean the people that somehow run to my songs and thank God that they do.
Share
35:51
They're all they all have some place in them that like me is broken somewhere. I know that about them. But also about audiences, audiences get to sit. I think this is a miracle. They sit and listen to us. They listen to us work and they're emotionally involved. And while that's happening they're going, we're we're thinking about other things. I'm having dreams. I'm remembering this and remembering that. I'm in an emotionally kind of moving stage and so are they.
Share
Ben Harper
36:27
Okay.
Share
Judy Collins
36:28
So this is an education that's going on that we don't have, we can't tell them what subject that we're singing about or how to spell miracle, but that's happening in their lives while we're singing. Don't you think that's true?
Share
Ben Harper
36:41
I think that's spot on. I think that's perfectly stated.
Share
Judy Collins
36:46
Thank you.
Share
Ben Harper
36:47
And you know, if it was it's perfectly stated. If I add to it, then it's not, that's just that lands it.
Share
Judy Collins
36:56
I'm going to ask you about. Yeah, the you have how many you have a bunch of kids, don't you?
Share
Ben Harper
37:05
I do I have six children.
Share
Judy Collins
37:06
Six children. How do you manage that, exactly?
Share
Ben Harper
37:09
Well, I'm hoping to, just in the future, they can manage me.
Share
Judy Collins
37:12
That's it. That's the truth. That's the truth. Get them educated so they can take over.
Share
Ben Harper
37:22
Yeah, they're smart. They're sharp kids, they're all involved in music. My daughter and my son, they're just wonderful one. They're all talented, far beyond and separate from anything I could even ever show them or teach them their own voices and I can't wait for you to hear them.
Share
Judy Collins
37:40
I would love to hear them. I'd also like to know if they're interested in your skateboarding career.
Share
Ben Harper
37:47
They are my middle son specifically still skates and yeah, anytime, anytime they start to sort of rule me out as far as not being hip or cool enough to kind of fit into their circle, which is a consistent theme, I remind them I can skateboard better than all your friends. It's a great wild card to have in the hand, dad coolness.
Share
Judy Collins
38:13
Yeah, that's very cool to be able to write the kind of songs you do and not only are you a song writer and a performer, but you're also a producer. Of course, we touched on that with the
Blind Boys Of Alabama
because but I'm sure that there are many other ways in which you have found to be a producer and adjunct to your own inspiration.Share
Ben Harper
38:37
Absolutely. I love producing from the artist's perspective because I know what it is to do a vocal take and have crickets on the other end of it after you've done it. I know the subtleties of recording and singing new words for the first time in the rawness of that and I've been able to apply that in producing other artists and I've enjoyed it very, very much. And yeah, it's just isn't it different though, isn't it different holding a heart in that way.
Share
Judy Collins
39:12
Yes, Yeah, very different, exciting, inspiring.
Share
Ben Harper
39:19
And at any rate, I followed, I followed them anyway, the artists already have everything it takes. I'm just a suggestion box.
Share
Judy Collins
39:27
Yes, but we need a wonderful producer...
Share
Ben Harper
39:31
And a great engineer.
Share
Judy Collins
39:32
Visionary, which you are in a great engineer and of course it isn't art form the whole the whole specter of the singing, the recording, the re-recording the struggles I've had many struggles over the years, was trying to get engineers to make me sound like I sing, who usually want all the instruments to be heard. I mean, I can't tell you almost no fistfights, but in many tears, many tears.
Share
Ben Harper
40:02
Oh I can imagine, because I for me, it's the voice. So everything comes up underneath it. One instrument at the time.
Share
Judy Collins
40:12
That's right, and that's how you sing, and that's why I'm so attracted to all of your music because it's there, you hear it, it's powerful and you understand the lyrics. I mean to me that's in a way that's if the talent isn't there, of course, it would never be interesting at all.
Share
40:29
But because first of all, you're an enormously talented writer and singer. But the thing is we can hear it all and you make all the shades come into the vocals and all of the instruments be where they're supposed to be. I mean, it's quite remarkable. You're amazing.
Share
Ben Harper
40:46
Thank you, thank you and.... And the... what... Okay, do you have the one irreplaceable moment where you just, it stands out for you as a singer, as a person, working with
Mavis Staples
, what we're talking about the voice and everything, paying homage to the voice and contributing to the frequencies of the voice that was being in the studio with Mavis
. It's it undergoes gravity in a very specific spiritual way, as I would imagine working with you does for engineers producers.Share
Judy Collins
41:25
Well, it can be a wonderful, well, I've worked with some amazing producers. I've worked with
Arif Mardin
. I didn't know anything about Arif when I, but I heard a recording of his by Danny O'keefe. Uh Angel spread your wings, it was called. And I had just finished writing a song about Duke Ellington
because I went to Duke Ellington's
funeral.Share
41:49
He and I were managed, he and I had the same agent in the States and one day, Robert Patterson called me up and said, I want you to come over to the plaza where he was staying. And I, so I did. And then I got there and he said, Duke wants to talk to you on the phone, he's in the hospital.
Share
42:09
And so he and I got on the phone and we talked about life on the road and about singing and about. And he was gone two days later he died and I went to his, I went up to Harlem and I stood in line and I touched his hand and kissed him goodbye. And then I went to his funeral at ST John the Divine's.
Share
42:28
So I wrote a song about him called Song for Duke. And when I heard Angel, I said, I have to have that producer, that particular producer. Who is that producer? Oh, that's
Arif Mardin
. You know him. No, I had no clue sometimes I look like I might know what's going on, Ben
. But there are times when I have no clue they were the opposite.Share
Ben Harper
42:52
I rarely look like, I know what's going on. But every but every once in a while I do well I call,
Share
Judy Collins
43:01
I call him David Geffen and I said I have to work with this fellow
Arif Mardin
. And he said, do you know anything about him? I said no. He said, well he made the beaches, he made them sing an octave above and so and he works with the reason I said, well I really don't care what he does.Share
43:18
I just need him in my life because he knows what to do with this song that I just wrote. So working with a reef of course was pure heaven. I got, here's what I got a
Arif Mardin
producing and Phil Ramone
as an engineer.Share
Ben Harper
43:33
I don't know how, I I don't know how that I need to find what, tell me what what is I need to know exactly that record.
Share
Judy Collins
43:41
That's oh the oh... Song for Duke. It's an album. The reef album was called, the first one was called Judith. That was the name of the album...
Share
Ben Harper
43:50
Oh he did, he did Judith!
Share
Judy Collins
43:52
He did Judith, and then and then he did bread and roses and it was the same combination of our reef and
Phil Ramone
. I mean it's hysterical to get the hell he was. He was the best. He was a great great man and a great friend of mine and uh he was one of the last, he and his wife were two of the last people to see me get as drunk as I ever did before I got sober.Share
44:15
Oh by the way, I just wanted to share something with you. I just found out that the people who who work in the liquor stores and sell liquor, you know what they're called? They're called the first responders. I just wanted to make a comment about the pandemic. One of which one in which you and I know neither one of us has much to do with that part of the pandemic, but that's what it's always around the corner.
Share
Ben Harper
44:41
Okay, so he did Judith,
City of New Orleans
, Houses.Share
Judy Collins
44:45
Yes, exactly, exactly. And oh what a doll, what a doll, what a humane extraordinary man he was. So anyway, there were times though when I had some somebody who didn't want to hear the voice, they can hear only the instrument. So how have you approached that? I mean you don't need to say much when you go and work with, with
Mavis Staples
. By the way. I first knew Mavis
at Newport
where, where I had a crush on her on pop. He was amazing. I mean the whole, they were just remarkable and I got to know them.Share
Ben Harper
45:25
Relentless. He never looked like he was pushing one.
Share
Judy Collins
45:28
Never, never sang like an angel, he was an angel, he was a beautiful man. I adored him. Well we have been through a lot. You and I... you have been through a lot probably more than I because there are things that happen in one's life that are unthinkable and inexplicable.
Share
45:52
I've had some of those too, but we get through them I think with music and I think that this would be the place to say that when you have a musical life and you have a talent and you have a unique talent. So it's not like other people can have it. But when you have it, it makes a huge difference in your whole life about how you think about what's going on in the world. I think it affects everything.
Share
Ben Harper
46:18
It does. It does. I like and what, you know, I'm a fan of music first before we notice hit of my own and this and sound when music moves me regardless of the genre, it's almost it's a portal and you know, I love as a porthole and it's almost it's to me it's the feeling of understanding everything all at once.
Share
46:53
It's a feeling, it's a feeling that I, you know, it's just it's opened up in a very specific way and so I'm I am permanently enlivened by new music and new songs, new sounds.
Share
Judy Collins
47:10
People say to me, how do you know when you hear a song whether it's going to be one you sing and I say it's like love you don't, you know it and the minute, the minute you hear it, don't you think that's true?
Share
47:22
The minute you hear you say and you don't analyze it, you utilize it, you immediately say I have to sing that song and figure out how to play it. And you have been writing songs. Did you start writing songs when you started working with, forgive me with
Taj
? When did how did you meet Taj
. Did you meet him at the club?Share
Ben Harper
47:47
I met
Taj
. Taj
knew my parents before I was born. He, he knew my dad worked at a college where Taj
wife Inshirah was going to school which was in the... in my hometown, has a lot of colleges there. And so Taj
would visit his wife to be my dad taught at that school, he would come into my family's music store, so he's since I was a literal baby.Share
Judy Collins
48:22
A baby!
Share
Ben Harper
48:23
And I've been going to see
Taj Mahal
at the, at the riverside barn, long-lived Dottie at the riverside barn in her concert series there.Share
48:32
And I have been going to see
Taj
since just all my life. And then as I started playing more and more locally, Taj
saw me play at the age of 20 or so and sent me a plane ticket to join his band that's amazing and you went on tour of them right away, went on tour with him right away and from that, there was that much more when I would come off the road with tires, there would be that much more interest in the songs that I was writing myself up to that point.Share
49:04
I was mainly doing blues covers,
Robert Johnson
, Mississippi John Hurt
...Share
Judy Collins
49:11
And
Mississippi John Hurt
, who may hang out, hung out with at Newport
, I adored him! You know, I had that fortunate to sit around and drink with him and sing with him and listen to him. Oh my God!Share
Ben Harper
49:25
It was
Newport
folk festivals in that area that's hallowed ground.Share
Judy Collins
49:31
Yeah, it is. Oh my God, how fortunate to be there.
Mississippi John Hurt,
Son House
, Son House
, it was like being in the presence of a guru of an angel of somebody who suddenly it's in your life and you think, how did this happen? Remarkable, remarkable. So, Taj and you were on the road and then?Share
Ben Harper
49:58
And then Taj starts seeing it. And, and I confide in
Taj
, there's some record label interest, he's giving me words of support at that time and being incredibly supportive. There was one time where there was a record label interested because, you know, as most people I know in the industry, we were turned down by every single label except for one that's usually, I mean, it's,Share
Judy Collins
50:22
I don't know where that comes from, that kind of mathematical uh, concrete a fact, but that's a fact.
Share
Ben Harper
50:30
Yeah. Every everybody I know got turned away for the one set of ears that mattered most. And one of those labels that was uninterested in what I was doing came back and I was we were playing, we were doing
Austin City Limits
and we were eating at one of the famous barbecue spots there.Share
50:50
And I I went to the pay phone because I knew there was some movement from a specific label with my manager at the time. So I called, I said what happened? And the manager said, my manager said to me, they think they think all your songs need bridges.
Share
Judy Collins
51:11
They are the experts.
Share
Ben Harper
51:12
And yeah, for one and two, I mean, this was the dawn of hip hop and they're still worried about the bridge. Well, okay. And some of them even had bridges. They all need bridges. And so I went back to people dejected.
Share
51:29
You know, And I'm sitting there with my head hung down over my, you know, play the barbecue and
Taj
, you know, comes over puts it... and what's "What's wrong? What's wrong? " But I said, "No, I just had phone call about a record label who was interested and we were excited about them. But they said that all my songs need to be written rewritten because they need bridges! "Share
51:50
And he said that "Youngster, you tell them that the song goes until the song ends". Which just...
Share
Judy Collins
52:05
Just so beautiful!
Share
Ben Harper
52:07
The song goes and that was just, you know, one of 100 words of wisdom from
Taj
and to this day. Yeah, that stands.Share
Judy Collins
52:23
That's a wonderful story. They all need bridges. I will never forget that. That's incredible. I want to ask you awesome. First of all, it's been such a privilege to talk with you to talk about music and life.
Share
Ben Harper
52:36
We could go on...
Share
Judy Collins
52:37
I know, we could go on and on. And I want to ask you, first of all, to tell us what you're thinking about next. Now you started of course with this lifetime contract with
Virgin
, which I think is wonderful. But now you have your own label.Share
Ben Harper
52:59
I do.
Share
Judy Collins
52:60
And do you have plans for the future of what you I know you're probably writing songs as we speak and thinking about another album And as you project it into 2021 and on beyond the pandemic, we have to think of life as beyond the pandemic.
Share
Ben Harper
53:18
Thank you for reminding me.
Share
Judy Collins
53:19
What kind of things are you thinking about? I know you can't be specific, but in general, where are your ideas going and where is your energy going?
Share
Ben Harper
53:29
Can I answer it lyrically?
Share
Judy Collins
53:30
Absolutely.
Share
Ben Harper
53:33
I'm in one direction, there's a reggae song. I've got a reggae song called Spin it Faster. It's a duet with
Ziggy Marley
.Share
53:39
DJ play that song for me, with the one drop beat
Share
53:42
I'm not here to lean on the wall just to move my feet
Share
53:46
I'm your ever laster, spin it faster
Share
53:50
So that's in one direction. The other direction is more based in and around something related to
Springsteen
, Nebraska
.Share
54:02
Today I turned 33, my oldest didn't call
Share
54:05
Middles out of state and the youngest lives here with me
Share
54:08
It's not down, it's a final resting place.
Share
54:11
When I die from choices, I refused to make
Share
54:14
Takes eight minutes for the sun to hit your bones, I'm a long way from home
Share
54:18
Only so many days we can own, I'm a long way from home.
Share
54:23
And that's another song and a more Americana roots direction. I'm just going.
Share
Judy Collins
54:29
You're going wild. That's the best. I want to thank you. It's been an incredible experience to talk with you and our listeners are going to love every minute of this journey that we've had together the next time we meet will be post-pandemic. But I hope that we see one another in masks and distanced before that moment comes. God bless you, thank you for your gifts for your talent and for joining me on Since You've Asked.
Share
Ben Harper
55:07
The honor of a lifetime.
Share
Break
Add podcast
🇮🇹 Made with love & passion in Italy. 🌎 Enjoyed everywhere
Build n. 1.38.1
Judy Collins
Ben Harper