Tuesday, Dec 17, 2019 • 27min
Why Is Asking for Money So Painful?
Play Episode
If negotiating a higher salary was easy, everyone would do it. And while most people don’t negotiate, if you’re not asking for promotions and raises at every turn in your career, you’re leaving money on the table. Today’s episode talks about knowing what you're worth—and shares tips for getting it.
Expert: Ashley Feinstein Gerstley
She Make Money Moves will be taking a break over the holidays. We’ll return with new episodes on January 7, 2020.
Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices
Read more
Talking about
Speakers
(2)
Samantha Barry
Ashley Feinstein Gerstley
Transcript
Verified
Break
Samantha Barry
00:14
She Makes Money Moves is a production of
Glamour
and iHeart Radio
.Share
00:18
Negotiating is a little bit of, not a hard point, but I'm not sure I would know how to do it at this point in my career.
Share
Samantha Barry
00:33
I'm
Samantha Barry
, the editor in chief of Glamour, and this is She Makes Money Moves.Share
00:43
If negotiating a higher salary was easy, everyone would do it. But negotiating isn't easy, hat's why so many people don't. According to a survey by staffing firm
Robert Half
, only 39% of workers tried to negotiate pay with their last job offer. Unsurprisingly, the same survey found that fewer women than men tried to negotiate.Share
01:08
In many cultures where boys are taught to be assertive, girls are encouraged to be accommodating. This explains in part why as adults women might be less comfortable asking for a raise or a promotion. Adding fuel to the fair pay fire society has told us that it's taboo to talk about money, so many of us go into salary negotiations with no idea how much our co-workers make and consequently no idea how much money we should be asking for.
Share
01:40
I know maybe very little about what the industry is making, but I don't know how to get to figure that part out.
Share
Samantha Barry
01:47
Today's guest is pretty sure it's time to level up her career. She thinks she's due for a raise and a promotion, but she's unclear on what steps she should take to get there. This is her story.
Share
02:01
My name is Liz, I'm 34 years old, from
New York,
and I work in the event planning industry.Share
Samantha Barry
02:06
After graduating from a small business school with a degree in marketing, our guest, who has asked us to call her Liz, wasn't sure what career path to follow. She started an internship at an hourly rate, and the company eventually offered her a full time job with a $30,000 salary.
Share
02:25
Over the next six years, she stayed at that company earning higher titles which came with pay increases. At one point she asked for a promotion, but outside of that she took what the company offered when they offered it.
Share
02:38
I had one instance where I asked for a promotion, and all of the other promotions were based on performance. So I felt comfortable at the time when an opportunity presented itself to ask for it, and I was given that promotion,.
Share
Samantha Barry
02:58
Liz had worked in several departments at the company and eventually settled into event planning as a career. When another company reached out with a job opportunity, she was ready to move on.
Share
03:09
So going into the second job, I knew that I wanted to make more money. I did negotiate. They did offer something better than what I was making at the time, but I was able to negotiate a little bit further.
Share
Samantha Barry
03:23
Liz told her boss at her first job that another company had reached out and he coached her through the interview and negotiations.
Share
03:31
My boss told me, with my experience, knowing that the company that was hiring me wanted me, and he just talked to me through the interview process and there wasn't too much negotiating on the company's side at that point. So I was just comfortable with like, the confidence boost that my boss gave me, and kind of the confirmation that what I was asking for wasn't totally crazy.
Share
Samantha Barry
03:59
She was offered the job and started with a $50,000 salary. She had been at that job and at that salary for two years when once again another company reached out.
Share
04:10
I kind of didn't get anywhere in those two years at that job. I kind of stayed on par with existing debt, existing bills, nothing had really changed. So I wanted to make sure that with the career change also kind of came a little bit of a life change for me.
Share
Samantha Barry
04:26
At that point she was living with her boyfriend, who is now her husband, and she was thinking about the future. How much would she need to make if they were going to get married, buy a home and have children?
Share
04:38
So I went into this job asking for $60,000 and I think I got a little bit more than that.
Share
Samantha Barry
04:50
She accepted the job. In the eight years since she has married her now husband, had children and earned several promotions. Her salary is now around $90,000.
Share
05:03
She thinks she could make more, either by leaving or asking her current employer for a raise. But she doesn't know how much she should be making and she's not sure how to figure that out.
Share
05:15
I no maybe very little about what the industry is making, but I don't know how to get to figure that part out. So negotiating is a little bit of, not a hard point, but I'm not sure I would know how to do it at this point in my career. I think by not asking, by not talking, I hold myself back from getting a pulse on the industry, getting a pulse on the culture work.
Share
05:42
At this point, my husband and I both contribute to our household about 50/50 to bill. So it's car payments, mortgage, daycare, house expenses, anything and everything. You know, that just seems to be coming up these days, and it's still a struggle.
Share
06:01
So I don't feel like I'm much far off from where I was a couple of years ago when I was single and had my day to day expenses. You know, it's just bigger and more expenses at this point.
Share
Samantha Barry
06:18
If she decides to ask for a raise, she's also not sure how to advocate for herself.
Share
06:23
Talking to my boss and asking for more, you know, it's not my company's responsibility that I have a family. So I have to always remember my motive to ask for that, but I also have to understand that I have a value. I, you know, it's what I contributed, it's what I've grown and what I've experienced, and that that's why I'm asking.
Share
Samantha Barry
06:48
So she has the motivation, but the idea of asking for a raise or promotion makes her nervous.
Share
06:55
I think I hold myself back. I think there's a fear of rejection there. I think there's a fear of failure. What if I did get that promotion and I didn't do a good job, you know? Did I screw myself out of the position that I'm in now? Did I make the right move?
Share
07:16
So for me personally, it's always my own fear and in my own head and that, I have a hard time finding my voice that way. I think I compare myself too much to other people and that kind of sparks the fear. I see other people feeling confident, I see other people being successful and I just don't have that confidence for some reason because I maybe compared too much.
Share
Samantha Barry
07:44
More on She Makes Money Moves right after this quick break.
Share
Break
Samantha Barry
08:49
I'm
Samantha Barry
, welcome back to She Makes Money Moves. Liz says she won't go to her friends for advice, since finance isn't something they talk about.Share
08:59
Money and career is not a big topic of discussion with my friends. They're all different backgrounds, but it never comes up.
Share
Samantha Barry
09:09
She's also personally uncomfortable asking her coworkers to share their salaries and she doesn't feel like she has connections outside the office who could help.
Share
09:19
At this point in my career, I just want to make sure that I'm continuing to grow. I'm happy where I am and would just be looking to make sure that I'm on a path to grow and continue to make raises and get promoted. I wish I found my voice a little bit earlier in my career. My internal voice to give myself confidence or to have open dialogue with bosses or coworkers.
Share
09:50
And feel a little bit more prepared to figure out where I am and to figure out where I'm going. And I wish I had started that sooner. I wish I had somebody years ago to mentor me and keep that going, because I had mentors on and off, and so I just wish that I had kept that going.
Share
Samantha Barry
10:15
Yeah, today's expert has a degree in finance, but until she took a hard look at her lifestyle and her spending, she struggled with finances too.
Share
Ashley Feinstein Gerstley
10:27
Hello, I'm Ashley Feinstein Gerstley. I'm the founder of The Fiscal Femme and the author of "The 30 Day Money Cleanse".
Share
Samantha Barry
10:34
So Ashley, the first thing that jumped out at me from Lizzie's story was her impostor syndrome. A lot of women experienced this at work, right?
Share
Ashley Feinstein Gerstley
10:42
Yes!
Share
Samantha Barry
10:42
Because the reality is in the world that men often go for jobs that they're under qualified for, and a woman won't go for a job until she's fully qualified.
Share
Ashley Feinstein Gerstley
10:51
I think the stat is like 60% a man will apply for a job that he meets 60% of the qualifications, and a woman will wait until she meets all of the qualifications.
Share
Samantha Barry
10:60
Liz go for the promotion, you might not get the job if you ask, but if you don't ask, you definitely won't. And if you do get the bigger job, you'll grow into it.
Share
11:11
As far as salary goes, Liz isn't sure of how much to ask for. She doesn't know how much her coworkers are making, so she's not sure what's fair. How can she figure that out?
Share
Ashley Feinstein Gerstley
11:21
So, something she mentioned was that it's not a culture where where people talk about it, so kind of a hack for that is if anyone left the company, to talk to them, because they're talking about a previous salary. So, talking to someone about a past position, recruiters can be really great resources. They know what people are making in the industry, online research.
Share
11:42
So sites like salary. com, payscale. com, Glassdoor, Career Contessa. Career Contessa has a salary project where people have entered in their salaries, so great places to just do some online research and looking at your position, the industry, your location is important. And just education in general.
Share
Samantha Barry
12:00
What if she's not close with anyone who has left the company? What if the only way to find out is to ask her current coworkers?
Share
Ashley Feinstein Gerstley
12:07
Sometimes, if she's up for it, starting the conversation with her colleagues, I think it's easy to, it's not easy, it's a difficult conversation, but an easier way to start it is just to acknowledge that it's awkward.
Share
Samantha Barry
12:18
I've done that, I've done it in a previous job. Going into contract negotiations. I asked three guys around the same level, one on one over beers, to share their salaries. Out of the three, two of them told me.
Share
12:31
And honestly, when I went into my negotiations, I asked for way more because I knew I could ask for more. And I think it's so important for Liz, for any woman listening, your knowledge is power. Having that knowledge will set you up in the right place. So once she knows how much she should be making, how does she negotiate to get there?
Share
Ashley Feinstein Gerstley
12:52
The biggest tips I'd say is, I used to view a negotiation as me coming in once a year and like banging the table and doing it in like that stereotypical way, like I deserve a raise, but it's really a year round discussion. And if you haven't had, it definitely have the that type of conversation where you share your expectations.
Share
13:09
But I find that it was often about me going in saying, you know what I really want this next position, what will it take for me to get there? And then going out and doing x, y, z and checking in and saying, hey, look with this projectI did, I want to do more of that.
Share
13:24
And that that was something I was thinking for Liz as well, because she was saying she wanted to work on new things, see what she was interested in. So kind of following that curiosity and asking for those projects could be really helpful. So definitely having the conversation I think is 80% of it.
Share
Samantha Barry
13:40
Right. The first step is asking, I've personally managed men and women in my career, and the guys always ask for more than the girls. If you don't ask, no one's going to hand you a promotion for being great. What else?
Share
Ashley Feinstein Gerstley
13:53
We can practice too, every day. I think we often think of negotiation as this high stakes salary talk, but just even picking a restaurant with your friends, that's a negotiation. Like, instead of saying, I don't care, say "I want to go here, I wanted to get this entree, let's share this dessert". These little low stakes things are a good way to practice.
Share
Samantha Barry
14:11
Right. Bucket number two is what my market value is, how valuable I am to the company, how valuable I am in the market and that goes back to what we were talking about, understanding what other people are paid, but making sure that your boss knows that you know where you're landing in this situation.
Share
14:28
And also to be aware that it costs a company way more to hire somebody new than it is to give you a bump, often. And then the third bucket, which I feel like a lot of people don't do a negotiation, is give me some vision. It's really, here's what I want to do, give me this and this, and here's where I'm going to take it. Here's my plan.
Share
14:47
So, always look at those three buckets when you're going in to negotiate either salary or raise or promotion or whatever it is. And it can help you to your point practice. You should be practicing in the mirror, practicing at home or practicing with your partner, and then be aware that you can't always get everything you want, right?
Share
15:04
Sometimes there isn't money in the bucket, sometimes there isn't the ability to to get promoted. But often going into asking for more than just a title and a salary, people sometimes don't negotiate other things. What would you recommend people negotiate for when they're talking to their bosses?
Share
Ashley Feinstein Gerstley
15:18
Definitely salary is really important to negotiate because it determines so many other things. But there are other things we can negotiate. We can negotiate bonuses, titles, benefits like working from home, more flexibility, more vacation days.
Share
Samantha Barry
15:34
You can negotiate further education, right? That's one of the things that I asked for in one negotiation.
Share
Ashley Feinstein Gerstley
15:39
I negotiated once for, I really wanted to take a negotiations course at
Harvard
. They had this program and you could go and there was either a three day option and a seven day option. And I brought all the information to my my boss at the time and said, "I really want to do this" and he said, "Do you want to do the three day one of the seven?", I was like "I guess just the three day" and he's like, "you really need this, I'm sending you on the seven".Share
Samantha Barry
15:59
You need the seven days!
Share
Ashley Feinstein Gerstley
15:60
That was a bad negotiation.
Share
Samantha Barry
16:02
Bad negotiation. Liz asked about mentors and we hear this all the time, for women in every stage of their career. What's your advice for people looking to connect with mentors?
Share
Ashley Feinstein Gerstley
16:13
I had this idea to that, it was this formal thing like, "Will you be my mentor?", and then you have, they have to say yes, and it's very scary, but it can be really informal. Inviting someone that you look up to for coffee.
Share
Samantha Barry
16:24
And I think that's important, you don't have to wait for an official mentorship program. Network, I don't call it networking, I call it relationships, because to your point, it's really a two way street. And I think one of the mistakes that people get when they are looking or searching out mentors is they go and they asked for too much straight up front.
Share
16:43
And a mentor-mentee relationship should be, you should be bringing knowledge or information into it that that person is really interested in. For me it's often what's the latest digital app that I should know about, but I think having it as a authentic relationship rather than one that's built on a one way like "I need this from" -
Share
Ashley Feinstein Gerstley
17:02
Passe down everything for me.
Share
Samantha Barry
17:03
Yeah, give me everything now. You know, Liz talked about mentors but I have said to a lot of people that your peers are sometimes the best relationships that you can have. What do you think?
Share
Ashley Feinstein Gerstley
17:13
Yes, I have this group of people and we all help each other. Someone who is running a billion dollar business is not having the same issues that I'm having with my business, and so it can be super, really, really helpful to have someone going through similar things and just has a different perspective than you, or has different strengths than you to support you.
Share
Samantha Barry
17:32
More on She Makes Money Moves right after this quick break.
Share
17:37
I'm
Samantha Barry
, welcome back to She Makes Money Moves.Share
17:40
So, we told Liz how to figure out the salary she should be asking for. What if she asked for that raise and her boss says no?
Share
Ashley Feinstein Gerstley
17:47
Continuing that conversation instead of ending it right there and walking out of the room, ask questions. Why is that not available right now? What can I do to get it? And I think it's really hard to say no to someone if you tell them you have to do X, Y, Z to get the promotion and they do X, Y, Z, and you come back to them.
Share
Samantha Barry
18:04
Don't be deflated. That's the easiest, most human emotion, if somebody says no to your promotion of your salary. Do not be deflated, but come up with a plan of action and that is true communicating okay, well if it's not time for me to be VP now, what do I need to do to get there?
Share
18:22
And I think there are really valuable questions to be asking in in these negotiations. But that kind of leads us into another one. When is it time to leave a job if you're not getting ahead? Because I think that's one of the concerns that Liz has and she feels like she's stagnating a little bit.
Share
Ashley Feinstein Gerstley
18:37
If you're being paid under market and you feel like your career is stagnating, it might be time to leave, and I think that's why one of the most important negotiation tips is having savings. So that you can either, either if you find a job while you're there, or you have the ability to leave and find a job.
Share
Samantha Barry
18:53
Liz also mentioned that she doesn't want to rock the boat. She wants to ask for a promotion, but she doesn't want to be pushy about it if her boss doesn't think she deserves one.
Share
Ashley Feinstein Gerstley
19:02
I think more often than not, you're not rocking the boat, and it's something that is expected because like you said, and this has happened to me, I did the job. I worked hard. I saw other people get promoted and I didn't. And so it's expected that you're going to advocate and asked to get the promotion or what you're worth.
Share
Samantha Barry
19:19
And you can almost say that, I know I've gone into conversations with, "You'd be disappointed in me if I didn't ask for this". I'd advise Liz or anybody to try to get over the fear of rocking the boat, get on your boss's calendar and be very upfront about why you want this.
Share
19:35
Maybe it's not that you go in and ask for more money every three months, because I think that's unrealistic. But if it's, you know, bi annually or annually, here's where I'm asking for, what I'm looking for. Liz mentioned the cost of living and the cost of having a family. Those aren't numbers she needs to bring up in the salary negotiation, right?
Share
Ashley Feinstein Gerstley
19:53
Yeah. So I think it's really important to know what your cost of living is and what you need to earn in order to meet your financial goals, but I loved the buckets you described and really focusing on your value in the workplace, not how much you need to spend.
Share
Samantha Barry
20:07
Right, you don't say I deserve a raise because I have a kid or, a cat, you say "I deserve a raise because I made the company half million dollars last week". The raise is based on your professional life, not your personal life.
Share
Ashley Feinstein Gerstley
20:20
It's interesting, because I do know there are lots of statistics on men when they have children earn more because they know that they have these new expenses, but I feel like the best way to go about the conversation is "this is what I'm bringing to the company, this is what I'm worth in the market", and I loved the point on the vision and "this is where I'm going to take it", and not focus as much on what you're spending.
Share
Samantha Barry
20:43
I don't know anyone who likes salary negotiations, but it's so important to ask for promotions and raises at every turn in your career. Remember, your company makes you an offer expecting you'll come back and ask for more. If you don't, you're leaving money on the table. As with any conversation tied to money, the more you practice and prepare, the more at ease you'll feel.
Share
21:08
Talk to your coworkers and other people in the industry. Talk to recruiters. Talk to your friends. Know your worth and then ask for it.
Share
Break
Add podcast
🇮🇹 Made with love & passion in Italy. 🌎 Enjoyed everywhere
Build n. 1.38.0
Samantha Barry
Ashley Feinstein Gerstley