Wednesday, Dec 15, 2021 • 42min
A Holistic Approach to Baby and Toddler Sleep (with Grace Koinange)
Play Episode
Pediatric sleep expert Grace Koinange joins Janet this week to share her experience, knowledge, and a few secrets for helping babies and toddlers to sleep. Janet had the privilege of seeing Grace in action and was impressed by her ability to tune in to a baby's most subtle cues and support his individual sleep rhythm. Grace and Janet discuss consistency, self-confidence, nurturing sleep from infancy, helping a toddler transition to a new sleeping arrangement, and trust in the child as an active participant in the sleep process.
Learn more about Grace Koinange's services and contact her here: https://www.newbornsleeptraining.com/
For more advice on common parenting issues, please check out Janet's best-selling books on Audible, FREE with a 30-day trial membership if you use this link: adbl.co/2OBVztZ. Paperbacks and e-books are also available at Amazon, Google Play, Barnes & Noble and Apple Books.
Janet's exclusive audio series "Sessions" is available for download. This is a collection of recorded one-on-one consultations with parents discussing their most immediate and pressing concerns (www.SessionsAudio.com).
Advertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands
Privacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy
Read more
Talking about
Speakers
(2)
Grace Koinange
Janet Lansbury
Transcript
Verified
Janet Lansbury
00:02
Hi, this is Janet Lansbury. Welcome to Unruffled. Today, I have a great guest to share with you. Her name is Grace Koinange, she's a pediatric sleep consultant and a lactation trained newborn care specialist. Grace works privately as a concierge sleep coach. She prides herself in solving almost all newborn sleep challenges from infancy to two years.
Share
00:26
While I actually know many sleep consultants that I can recommend. I had the opportunity to meet Grace recently when we were working alongside each other, and I was so struck by her intuitiveness, her gentle calm presence and how she was able to read a baby's gestures and signals. Also, her overall approach to sleep, some of which was surprising to me. I'm learning a lot from her, so I'm excited to share Grace and her knowledge with you.
Share
Break
Janet Lansbury
02:22
Hi Grace, welcome to Unruffled.
Share
Grace Koinange
02:26
Hi Janet. I'm so glad to be here.
Share
Janet Lansbury
02:29
Well as you and I know I happen to be in the situation where I got to work alongside you, and I was so impressed with your ability to understand babies and what they need and their cues, which I always had a difficult time with. You're just a wealth of knowledge and intuition about everything to do with sleep and helping children develop the healthiest sleep possible. So I would love to hear a little about your background in terms of this work and how you developed your expertise around sleep.
Share
Grace Koinange
03:05
So as a parent, nobody prepares you for what's to come. I had no idea the things that I did not know. I am a trained doula and wanted so much to help my son, who was struggling with sleep.
Share
Janet Lansbury
03:21
What was going on with him? What was the problem for you?
Share
Grace Koinange
03:23
There was a lot of sleep struggles. He was waking up at night every hour. He was breastfeeding. There was just a lot of me going back to put the pacifier in, and I just was quite destructive for both of us. As an adult, I could not function, and so I knew that there was information out there that I could get to be able to sort of help him become a better sleeper, and also I needed to sleep because I felt like a zombie.
Share
03:50
So I braved myself enough to go to google and such all the sleep techniques that were there. There was the cry it out, there was the extinction method and just so many more that I kept finding myself getting confused about what to choose as a mom. Because knowing my parenting style, I needed to choose something that was kind, I needed to choose something that I would help parents as a doula.
Share
04:15
So I read sleep books, I took to sleep training courses. I researched and researched, and through that research I became curious enough to see if new bonds could actually sleep or organize their sleep without much crying. And that was quite interesting for me. And this is how I discovered
Magda Gerber
.Share
04:36
She founded Resources for Infant Educators, and I loved everything about what she talked about competent confidence, curious, which is what I was, and I needed to incorporate this whole concept into sleep training. And so I graduated and became a pediatric sleep consultant, and I incorporated some of the rye literature to sort of help with my sleep science.
Share
Janet Lansbury
05:01
So you said something when we met that sounded very similar to what
Magda
always said. I think the way you said it was that sleep is actually about eating and play even more than it's about sleep. And Magda Gerber
used to say that sleep is about the entire day that a baby has and the rhythms of their day.Share
Grace Koinange
05:23
So yes, the whole process taught me that there was no cutting edge sleep science with training my son.
Magda
taught me that it's not about the baby waking up at 3 a. m. It is truly about what happens the whole entire day, from when the baby wakes up at 7 a. m to when the baby goes to sleep at 7 p. m.Share
05:42
It is the in between because that's what determines developmentally what the baby is doing. That was rich information for me to take and that was information that I wanted to use for my son, which I did. At nine months, one of the things that was really important for me is I never put my baby down. I never observed his play.
Share
06:05
He was working through a few struggles and I never thought that I could just watch him instead of pushing a toy to him, and so I helped him a lot in a lot of his play.
Magda
taught me how to wait, just wait and see what happens. And I discovered that through sleep, that we have to wait for the infant to see what happens developmentally.Share
06:27
And so the secret for me was to just silently observe. That was the secret source of infant sleep training that I use it right now, and I also used for my son. Is doing less being present, 100% on the floor with him, understanding that he is going to work through that problem during play because that's the same problem that's going to develop at night.
Share
Janet Lansbury
06:51
Were you observing that he was capable of doing more in regard to sleep than you thought?
Share
Grace Koinange
06:57
Absolutely. Like, the whole observation for me was that I realized that he was an excellent explorer. There was consistency in how he played with his hands and what he was trying to do with his legs as a newborn. And I realized that allowing him to be on the floor and to experience his natural curiosity would help him do the same thing in bed.
Share
Janet Lansbury
07:18
So you realized that your son could be capable as an infant in terms of play. If you just calm yourself right and waited a little, and you were still present. You didn't distance yourself from him. You were still very much in it. I'm sure he felt your presence because children do. They're so aware when they're babies.
Share
07:38
So being able to see that helped you see that he's maybe capable of more than you thought in terms of sleep that you didn't have to try to make sleep happen so much, which I think we all get stuck doing.
Share
Grace Koinange
07:50
Exactly. So I think my sleep training, like you said, it was very practical. It's like let's see what happens during play because this will come up during the night. But at the moment, I would tell myself the story that, "He's waking up at night. I am sleep-deprived. I am struggling as a parent and I need to create structure. Is he eating enough?"
Share
08:11
So there were a lot of questions that I would ask myself to sort of try and adjust to what I'm looking at and thinking that my baby is doing. I became introspective, and I started understanding it is truly not in my power to I understand that, but to observe and then take notes. I would observe and take notes and see what is he struggling with during play.
Share
08:32
And as a parent, I found myself helping. I would push a toy, not allowing him to make his own decisions. I was engaging in his play, which meant that he was going to call for me at night so that I can also engage in his sleep. And so that was important for me to know that I should let him carry his burden and as a newborn and how do I do that, respectively.
Share
08:57
Because I did not want to do the cry it out. I think this would happen during play, and it was quite experimental, and accidental. To be honest with you, it was trying to figure out if he's failing at this task, which is whatever he was doing at the moment, then he's going to fail at the task of sleeping.
Share
09:15
And I was building expectations for myself and for him, which we're not going to be achievable. And so because the quieter was not attractive to me, I was, I was going to be patient enough to do this with my child, and I was going to be patient enough to sort of understand what is it that I need to gain for myself.
Share
09:34
Most sleep books would tell me they would say wait three minutes or a few minutes if the baby wakes up and which is great. It's a great concept when you think about it, we want to develop a place where you're not going into quick to get the baby when the baby wakes up. But I thought to myself and I said, "What if I could change this to waiting to three minutes before I could intervene in his play?
Share
09:59
"What if I could wait a little bit before I could decide that he was doing something in my head that he wasn't doing." And so waiting for three minutes helped me understand that. "Oh, he's actually doing the work. He's actually working on something." And so this was a sleep giver for me.
Share
10:16
It was looking at the solution and allowing the process to foster, that helped me understand that setting goals, expectation really needed to happen during play so that he can transition to the sleeping.
Share
Janet Lansbury
10:31
And was there crying involved, when you started to give him at nine months more opportunities to help himself to sleep?
Share
Grace Koinange
10:38
Absolutely, absolutely. There was some struggle, there was some crying. I was uncomfortable as a parent because I was like, okay, he's uncomfortable, and so I feel uncomfortable, but just let's wait another minute and see what happens. So he would experience whatever he was experiencing.
Share
10:53
But what was really beautiful about this, it's like when I give him the space to sort of experience his natural changes, it helped him figure out for himself and we were able to see that some things were really tricky and if he was rolling over in bed, he would experience a headship. He would cry. But if I waited a few minutes, he would figure it out, or he would start playing more like he did during play.
Share
11:19
This was huge for me to just watch him in camera and if he was struggling with something, and he would roll over, and then he would start clapping his hands, or he would start bringing his hands together, or he would just sit down and play with a toy that I had put in the bed, which is what he did during play. So that made me pause. That allowed me to have an experience that was different than cried out.
Share
Janet Lansbury
11:44
Yeah, technology is very helpful in this instance, isn't it? Like the new technology, I mean with my second, we only had the sound monitors, but I didn't even use that because I had gotten so confident in her ability to call for me versus talking to herself and all the other things that she did.
Share
12:03
And I told her quite early, like when you want me, you called, mom like that. And of course she didn't say mom when she was a baby, but she made a sound that was very similar to that. It blew me away. And so I was able to trust that she, she would let me know. You know, it is challenging as a parent, especially with your first, to feel comfortable with any sound that's less than contentment and happiness and giggling.
Share
12:29
It's hard to hear because our mind goes to all the worst case scenarios. So they're feeling abandoned if I don't immediately pick them up and rescue them from this situation. They feel like I don't care that I don't love them or all of those things. It's, yeah, it is challenging.
Share
Grace Koinange
12:45
It is very challenging. And I also think that we prioritize their needs in terms of what we think in our head. And so taking care of myself first and taking care of my body to sort of understand, let me just slow down a little bit and see and observe was really great.
Share
13:05
What I liked about newborns and toddlers as well is that they are actually organized in whatever disorganized world we think they are in. We rush them developmentally into what we want them to do, but if we stop a little bit to sort of see what they're working through, we can follow Just the steps into how they transition from one place to another.
Share
13:27
I had transitioned my son from my room to the crib, and that was also another transition that he needed to face and go through. So just waiting and supporting him through that transition was important for him and also for me to sort of say I need to hold on to my feelings and I also need to know that he's in a safe place.
Share
Janet Lansbury
13:50
I think one of the reasons that people have such a strong negative response to the idea of a child crying, especially at bedtime or having them be in their own room or sometimes even in their own bed. One of the issues is this idea that children will feel abandoned, the parent feels that this separation is very negative for their child and that their child feels like I said abandoned.
Share
14:18
And one of the things that struck me about your approach and your knowledge is that you sort of reframed the issue of separation in a way that I had really never thought of in terms of going from breastfeeding straight to bed or going from feeding straight to bed. The separation can be an issue, but it's different than the way most of us think about it. Can you talk a little about that?
Share
Grace Koinange
14:42
Oh, absolutely. You know when you think about attachment, and you think about how the baby bonds with us, if you're breastfeeding or feeling once they're they're comfortable in that position, they tend to fall asleep. And then the next thing that happens after you, he'd is you place your baby in the bed, and you walk away and so you do not give them time to transition into understanding that you're leaving, right?
Share
15:04
And so they climb. So the things that I discovered through sleep and through working with parents is that if you feed before, give an infant and opportunity for play and then place them in the crib.
Share
15:18
You build new neurons in the brain where they understand, okay, this is a transition that happens. I will be feeding. And the next thing I will do is play, which is excitement. So they don't go from feeding to sleep immediately because that is when you have problems of placing your baby in the crib, and you can't walk away.
Share
15:38
The books don't necessarily tell us the methods of how do I put my baby in the crib and let them fall asleep. So we talk about self soothing. We talked about not letting them fall asleep on you, but how do you do this? And how you do this is by allowing that shells to have the space to play before you can place them in the crib and walk away.
Share
Janet Lansbury
16:01
So then you're working towards the rhythm of your baby is sleeping, your baby wakes up, then soon after that you nurse or feed, and then they have some playtime after that before they are placed in their familiar comfortable bed or entering into that bedtime routine, which you're also a big fan of I know. That's one of, you know,
Magda Gerber's
basic recommendations is have a predictable routine and low stimulation.Share
Grace Koinange
16:32
Giving them an opportunity where there is not too much noise and there's not too much intrusion allows that child to take five minutes to understand the environment, understand their body, understand exactly what you're communicating to them. And so this becomes a process.
Share
16:50
It becomes a routine for both of you that the baby loves and enjoys, and they discover that this is how I fall asleep. I do not fall asleep on a warm body and then transition to a crib. I fall asleep the same way every day. You walk into the room, close the curtains, changes like baby's diaper, get the baby comfortable in their pajamas or sleep sack and then from there you place the baby in the crib, and you say goodbye.
Share
17:17
So there's a process, and it takes time and the process doesn't change at all, even when they are a year old, it stays the same. And so if you give them that information, you know, I call it the University of Sleep. So we start gently as we grow and as the baby grows with you, they understand that this is how life transitions from my weakness to sleep.
Share
Janet Lansbury
17:40
And the other thing we commonly do, or you know, I certainly did in the beginning before discovering
Magda's
work is the baby falls asleep with us and on our body or on the breast or whatever, and then we place them in bed, and then they wake up in a place that they recognized.Share
17:59
But yeah, they didn't know how they got there, you know, and you know, we don't think maybe that it matters with the baby, but if you consider that they have like actually higher awareness, then we do as adults. It is something, it's a thing, it's a feeling of like, okay, I don't really quite know what happens to me. You know, I'm not a part of this so much, you know, it's a subtle thing but-.
Share
Grace Koinange
18:20
It is part of the process, but it is also part of how the brain develops to understand and consume asleep. I think parents in the beginning tend to think that sleep is always the number one thing. But the confusion of sleep and why your baby is not sleeping is actually food and inconsistency on feeding routines and where we feed and how.
Share
18:43
So feeding at the same place, sleeping at the same place and sleeping when they're awake so that they can understand the environment. I mean, it would be hard for me to wake up in the morning in somebody else's bed waking up with the same invitation to begin another new event or another new day because for babies every time they wake up, it is a new experience for them.
Share
19:06
And so if they learn that this is how they wake up every day, they gained this knowledge, they are able to regulate their body. They're able to understand this is the process which is really, really huge babies like to know baby is like a really, really good plan, and they like the same plan.
Share
19:26
And so it is really important that when we're caring for an infant or caring for a baby that we give them this opportunity to sort of learn that we are confident caretakers, and we will walk through the process the same way because this is easier for them to learn, and gain knowledge of how we care for them
Share
Janet Lansbury
19:46
Yes, and I mean if we think about it, the world is so confusing and overwhelming to them, this new brand-new world they're born into, and it'd be like us going to a foreign country, maybe going to a different planet and not knowing anything, and we really want those parts of our day that we can hold on to and feel solid and depend on, it really helps to build confidence that hey, I can fall asleep. So creating that environment.
Share
20:14
So what are some other things that get in the way as we're trying to establish healthy sleep with our children?
Share
Grace Koinange
20:20
You know, I think the number one thing that gets in the way is the parents, it got in my way sleep training my son. I love this slogan about the airlines when they say, "Secure your own mask or your own oxygen mask before securing your child." If you're taking care of a newborn, take care of your own body.
Share
20:39
Getting to understand that I will go get a snack, or I will eat properly before I attend to my newborn. I will make sure that I'm in the right mindset. So giving yourself that minute before you walk in to be able to be present, a hundred percent present with the newborn, and you're not doing other things. It's really, really important.
Share
21:00
And also knowing as an adult, this is a really, really good time to activate your executive functions. I find the most parents that I work with talk about how they are functioning adults before and now the baby's here, and they feel helpless. So, activating your own executive functions to sort of plan ahead. If feeding is a struggle, I will maybe consult a lactation consultant.
Share
21:25
I would also make sure that if I am struggling with feeding is sort of understanding, do I need to space the feeding so that baby is not feeding every hour? Maybe give an opportunity for a day to say I want to feed every two hours and see what happens. Because feeding every two hours will help the baby sleep longer. It will develop some sort of pattern for the baby.
Share
21:46
So that you can be able to look through the data of your day and say, "Oh, this is where we're going and this is what's happening. I can build on this." So that's really important to understand that we have the skills to do this, and we can fix it And we do not have to fix 24 hours with a newborn. And I said this to our parents, let's fix 9 to 12, and then we can work on the other part.
Share
22:11
So it doesn't have to be a holder because newborns also don't have the same sort of organization during the day. But you will find that they will repeat what they do between nine and twelve. They're going to repeat it tomorrow and the next day and the other day and the other day. So if that's what you work on, then that's your winning point.
Share
22:30
The other thing is to follow through. If you've transitioned, let's say you have a toddler or you have a child who is older, and you've decided that this is the transition, we're going to take. Follow through. Follow through in whatever plan you have, and it doesn't have to be followed through for a week. Let's do three days, three days is enough for a transition to sort of stick.
Share
22:54
I like to look at the results and see if they are working, or they're not. So having some miserable accountability that helps you understand what you're doing, which is what doulas do and sleep consultants, right? This is what we do. We have a measure. Let's try this method and see if this works and if this does not work, we ditch that and go to something else.
Share
23:14
The other thing is being organized within your routine. So you cannot do one thing today and then tomorrow you skip it, right? If you're going to do a sleep routine, bath book, some sort of a song, and then you lay your baby down. The baby is waiting for the song. So let's practice the same routine over and over.
Share
23:36
It might be boring for us, but it is quite entertaining for the infant to say, "I cannot wait for that book. I cannot wait for that song." You know, I also advise parents to read the same book over and over. Just the same way you read it with annunciation. The way you get animated. It's really, really exciting for an infant brain, just stay organized within that play.
Share
Janet Lansbury
24:01
Exciting, but it isn't it also that it helps them to naturally wind themselves down and prepare for separation because they know, okay, here's this part and then there's this one more thing that happens, and then I go in my crib, or I go in my bed and that's when, you know, I go to sleep and my parents is not going to be there while I'm sleeping. So yeah, it helps them to wind down if we have a gentle routine like that.
Share
Grace Koinange
24:27
And we also have routines, you know, we don't go straight to bed, you know, brush your teeth, you get your pajamas, you check a text message or two which keeps you up, you know, there's a routine that everybody follows. So it's important to keep the same routine for children to wind down as well.
Share
Janet Lansbury
24:46
And then for the whole day, like you said, it's not just about the wind down routine, it's the routine for the whole day, which, you know, I understand when parents say, I don't want to be on a routine all day, it's hard to keep that perspective that this is just for a short time, and it's going to actually serve you so much better in the end because you're gonna know, oh, I have this break between 1 and 2:30 in the afternoon.
Share
25:10
Where I usually, you know, we could never count it 100% unfortunately, but I am going to have this break where I can do my thing, and I'm, you know, it's such a benefit to us, and it doesn't mean that you never break the routine, but you know, you know that, okay, well I broke the routine so now maybe I'm going to have a couple more difficult days, but we'll get back to it.
Share
Grace Koinange
25:29
Yeah. And it is truly just staying consistent with the nap times. Those are the ones that are important because if you're putting your baby to sleep at 9:30 p. m. and 1:30 p. m every day. Trust me, there's going to be at some point that child at 9:30 we'll start grabbing their eyes. Their body is going to be ready, and you will just pick them up, scoop them up and do your routine. Place them in bed, and they will sleep because then you've activated their circadian rhythm, which is a huge thing for sleep.
Share
25:60
And so exercising that and remaining flexible, remaining curious as always your parents just, let's remain curious for a while. Let's just explore when I have a parent who calls me "Sleep is not happening and nap is disorganized, and she's waking up and it's so fragmented," and I always say to the parents, "Let's stay curious and see what's going on, let's have a plan, let's make a plan for the morning, let's work on naps."
Share
26:26
And she will say, "I'm looking to sleep through the night," and I said, "Let's work on naps," because it's really, really important for you to work on the small winds, which is naps other than working on the night. So if you work on the naps and the naps develop in a way where you get to learn when you're alert, and it's not 3 a. m. in the morning when you're exhausted and tired, you will get to understand your baby as well.
Share
26:47
So the routine's really, really are important. Not necessarily reading a schedule and knowing, yes, this is gonna hold me down, and I don't have a life and I have to stay home. But it's been in a place where you know, like if I stick to this the 9 o'clock or the 9:30 nap, I will be able to help my baby through the night. It is a win for the night if we stick to the routines, and we prioritize their sleep.
Share
27:12
The fun will come later. You will have so much fun if you know my baby's sleeping at this window and I can be able to take a shower at this window, right? Just the simple things.
Share
Janet Lansbury
27:21
Yeah. Simple things we take for granted.
Share
Grace Koinange
27:24
Yeah.
Share
Janet Lansbury
27:25
So now I just want to ask you a couple of questions. They represent common questions that I received. So here's one, "Somebody with an infant who is 2.5 months old, I'm writing to you for advice on sleeping. How do I set my child up for success? I have a bassinet next to our bed. But when I lay her down in it, she wakes immediately or only sleeps for 15-20 minutes.
Share
27:47
I try to rub her gently to help her get back to sleep or offer a pacifier. It sometimes works for a short while, but then she fusses for too long or cries and I pick her up and hold her for some time and put her back down, but neither of us gets to sleep much. I have her in a sleep sack with arms up for now. She seems to like that.
Share
28:03
Sometimes I take her out of that and lay her next to me in bed, and we're able to sleep for 2-3 hours at a time. Is this the right thing to do? I read that you should put your baby to sleep in the crib for naps and nighttime. But she sleeps so much and is only awake for short times. That would be a very long time spent in a crib.
Share
28:20
I also want to be sure she is getting quality sleep because sometimes she doesn't sleep so well-being held and then is over tired and struggles to fall asleep. I just want to be sure I'm doing the best possible thing because sleep and having the ability to fall asleep, stay asleep and have good quality sleep is so important and that is something I've always struggled with myself. "
Share
Grace Koinange
28:39
That is the loaded question. I love it. So as you are reading as I get to understand what's happening with the baby, I actually know what the struggle is, and the struggle is actually not sleep. The struggle is food. If you're not feeding the right amount to the right weight, then the baby struggles and wakes up, and you find that you have to replace a pacifier.
Share
29:02
And this is a big deal for parents. If your baby is full, and they are able to settle themselves down, then they do not require extra support from us. They do not require a pacifier. They do not require any rocking or any interference. They can be able to settle their body down. So assuming that this baby has not eaten enough and so will not be able to fall asleep.
Share
29:27
What I would say to this parent is, let's let's look at the food math, let's look at how much the baby is feeding depending on the nap times and how the baby is feeding in a 24-hour period. We should feed our babies in the right weight.
Share
29:44
So for instance, If your baby is 12 lbs, they need to have 24 ounces of milk in a 24-hour period, and then you break that down into different feeds. And that really helps babies, whether it's to settle down or to sleep through different feed so that you can, if you're breastfeeding, you can be able to replenish and make milk, or you can be able to rest. So this is a feeding question, not necessarily a sleep question.
Share
Janet Lansbury
30:12
So sorry, you said 24 ounces because it's a 12 pound baby. So it's double, but it's an ounce.
Share
Grace Koinange
30:18
Yes, to double the weight. So-
Share
30:19
They are going to gain 24 pounds
Share
30:21
Yeah, don't give 24 pounds of food, it's 24 ounces of milk or the formula of breast milk. And now begs the question, if I'm breastfeeding, how do I know how much my baby is having? And this is a simple thing that you can do. If you have access to a scale, a baby scale, that would be great.
Share
30:41
48 hours is enough for you to know how much your baby is having in a 24-hour period because then you have two days to compare. So I would way after every feeding for two days and every feed, I will write it down so that I can know how much they're having. If you don't have access to a baby scale, and you have access to your scale in the bathroom. Just wear yourself first, then step on that scale and weigh the baby.
Share
31:04
And this is going to be just a lot of math of you just subtracting. But I will tell you this that during the food math gives you perspective in understanding why is this baby not settling? It's because they're not having enough, but nobody tells us what is enough. Enough is just double the weight, make sure they're having doubled their weight and the baby will be able to settle.
Share
31:25
So when you read that question, my brain triggers food, food, food. Like I would not even touch sleep because sleep is going to be a byproduct of whatever we do, which is as we feed the baby, and they're little enough, they will be able to settle back to sleep because they know how to put themselves to sleep.
Share
Janet Lansbury
31:42
That's amazing that you got that from this note. I would have been much more confused. And then how about another question which is very common about transitioning a toddler. Let's say like a two or three-year-old maybe younger, maybe a little older from bed sharing or co-sleeping to sleeping in their own bed in their own room and the child is resisting and doesn't want to do this. How would you approach that?
Share
Grace Koinange
32:11
So the first thing I, you know, is making a plan, making sure that as a parent and this is what you're going to do. A plan that will comfortably allow the child to understand the decision that you're making because it's hard for a child to emotionally disengage from not sleeping in the same bed with you and just become an emotional task for the toddler.
Share
32:33
So letting them understand we are going to have a separate bed for you. We have decided this is what the bed looks like, and it's a toddler bed, and you know, you show them the pictures, and you get them involved, and we are going to paint your room, and we have two colors that you can choose from.
Share
32:52
I know you like pink, or you like football, you like blue or green. And so the child becomes part of the process. That's the first thing that you do. The second thing that you do is stick in the day. If I am going to approach my two-year-old or my four-year-old who is going to be sleeping alone or my six-year-old and sometimes some eight-year-old. I would approach them in terms of telling them this is happening in four days. Make it as tangible as possible for them to understand the timing because children don't understand next week or in two weeks, we are thinking about this.
Share
33:29
And so just make it as short as possible. It's going to happen in four days because you've been working on it. That's a parent and then mark your calendar, and I like to bring this conversation up before dinner happens. Your child is asking you so many questions, and you know they're impatient about the food or this is a good time to bring up a conversation about.
Share
33:46
"Hey, you are thinking about your room. And we, I know we've talked about this today is day two, day three" or whatever and point to the calendar. So they get engaged that when they're eating, they can ask more questions and when they sit on the table, you give them the opportunity to sort of think about this before bedtime.
Share
34:04
And so if there's a position for them to think of something else as you walk into bed or as you're doing your bedtime routine in your bedroom, you can say and tomorrow or on Thursday we're going to start transitioning into your bed and the sleeping routine will be the same, we're going to do bath, we're going to read a book, so this is all going to remain the same. The only difference is you will have your own big bed.
Share
34:27
So make it as exciting as possible because it is part of the process and when you make children part of this process, they become sold in so easily in the choices that they make. Now the biggest challenge is you can plan, you can paint the bed is ready and everything works and then the day comes, the child is obviously going with a plan and then falls asleep, but then wakes up and walks to your room and keeps walking back and forth.
Share
34:55
And so this is the big one. This is when we decide if we are to parents who is going to do the work. Children at 3 a. m. are great negotiators. So this is a point where you have your script and the script can go something like, "I am gonna walk you back to your room, I will tuck you into bed, I will walk out of the room and I will say goodnight and I love you," and you know, just however you talk to your child, if it was my child, I would say, "Hey, David, I'm gonna walk you back into the room, I'm going to tuck the bedsheets, I'll give you your stuffy, I'll kiss you on your forehead and I will say good night and I will see you tomorrow," right?
Share
35:33
So that's the process. But it's the same thing over and over. So in case they're talking over you and saying, "But I want to come and sleep back in your room and I want to do XYZ." And you're listening kindly, but you're responding back with the same answer.
Share
35:49
Whatever script you have, it has to be the same tagline all along as you're doing it. And as you're walking out of the room, don't linger. You know, parents tend to linger because it's an emotional place where you feel like, "Oh, maybe this wasn't the right thing," or "Maybe they're uh they're not happy" or "Maybe XYZ."
Share
36:07
If you've made a decision, this is a decision you've made because you want to care for your own body or because you've not been sleeping well and that they haven't been sleeping well, then this is the right decision. And once you're in it, let's work through the struggle.
Share
36:21
So it's been gentle, it's been kind and not having a timetable to this. Not being angry that the process is taking too long. You're going to have three bad nights, for sure. If you have a toddler, you're gonna have three bad nights whether you walk back and forth. And also, as you make your plan, let's expand the plan.
Share
36:40
So I've walked them in to their room, and I've said good night, and I've said all this, the tagline you've given me, then what do I do? So the next thing is planning to say, I'm gonna stay here until you fall asleep tomorrow. I'm gonna be halfway through the room until you fall asleep, the next day I'm gonna be outside the door.
Share
36:59
So, given them the exact information of where you're going to be and what you're going to do within this time. And everything else it talks about is having just that one parent, one child will ask where is the other parents, and they might just be calling their name or just asking for them or screaming for their name, and you will remain calm and say so-and-so, maybe "Dad is not available right now, dad is sleeping because it's at night, and I am going to sleep, and you're going to sleep," and sort of helping them through that process.
Share
37:31
And if they are not moving, or they are not doing what you want them to do. Just pick them up gently and say, "I am going to help you through this process, and I'm gonna take you back to your room and I will pull the covers," whatever the script is, just repeat that script as you're helping them through there.
Share
37:48
And children understand the process. They really do. The people who don't understand the processes that adults because the child will say, "Oh I am thirsty. And then you walk to the room to get the water," and they're like, "Oh, okay, I can definitely ask for something else, oh, I want this, and I want this."
Share
38:05
So you are running getting stuff for the child. And so the child is also building information and saying, "This is not an adult who is firm on the decisions they made." So just being firm and understanding that I will just keep saying the same thing, repeating the same script.
Share
38:20
But also preparing yourself if you know your child is thirsty, bring a bottle of water if you know, your child needs to the stuff you bring that stuffy. Don't bring noisy toys, don't bring trucks and things that are going to be destructive to bring soft things that will not be destructive towards you and their sleep.
Share
38:37
And so again, repeating the process helps and knowing that this is short time for long gains. Don't give up. Just stick to the process.
Share
Janet Lansbury
38:47
I love that there's so many great messages there about the child being an active participant in having ownership of the changes that we want to happen as they want to have ownership, even from birth in their life as much as possible, you know, communicating with them honestly.
Share
39:04
And then also I loved what you brought up about. It's something we all feel as parents, that it's separation again, but it's our separation hiccup, not even our child so much. It's us having those doubts seep in because we want to separate in this wonderful, loving, easy way.
Share
39:24
We don't want to feel all our doubts coming in about, "Oh, my child doesn't feel loved enough, or they can't do this." or all those things and, you know, understanding, at least that we're going to be inclined to have a little separation issue, you know, with a change like this.
Share
39:42
I also loved what you said about, you know, the negotiating, because when they say now I need another thing and again, being prepared in advance, like, here's the water. Like, how many hugs should we put into the routine?
Share
39:53
You know, because when they ask for another hug that we can at least feel a little more confident saying, you know, I can't wait in the morning. I'm going to give you another hug and that will be a wonderful time for me, you know, but not getting engaged in the negotiation. I mean, for me, I had to see it as like, I'm really not helping my child there at all.
Share
40:14
It may feel nicer to me, but I'm actually not being as nice to my child to prolong this and make them, you know, feel my doubt and have to make it okay for me. I have to make me feel better about this. So yeah, it's a lot of reframing of ideas.
Share
Grace Koinange
40:30
Absolutely. And it reduces confidence they can see. And so at 3 a. m. knowing I am confident and this is what's going to happen. I won't waver, and it's through love and support. And I think children, once we are consistent with the message, and we are confident about what we're seeing and what we're doing, they feel supported, they feel loved, they feel like you got this.
Share
40:53
So when we waver back and forth, it becomes confusing and they're like, are we communicating this? Oh, are you saying this? It's like having a relationship with a couple arguing about, I hear you say this, but you're doing this right?
Share
41:09
So the child is really telling you, you're not saying what you're doing. And so staying confident within what you decided to do. And that's why, you know, take time to think about the process. Take time to think about what we want to do. And children love anybody who can exude confidence because they are confident humans.
Share
41:28
They are true to themselves. They know what they need, and they need an adult who is unwavering and makes them feel safe and who makes them feel like you got it. I don't need to worry about it. I don't need to worry about my bedtime because you have it.
Share
Janet Lansbury
41:44
Right? Because if we're wavering like, how are they supposed to approach this challenge? Whatever it is with confidence, you know, we're shaking their confidence, in other words. But yeah, I've spent a lot of time telling myself all these things whenever I had to do anything that my children might have not totally signed onto.
Share
42:02
So this is all wonderful. Thank you so much. You're such a gift. You really know this topic inside and out, and I really appreciate you sharing so much of your wisdom with us.
Share
Grace Koinange
42:14
Thank you so much, Janet.
Share
Janet Lansbury
42:16
Thank you. And I'll be posting Grace's contact information on her website for anyone who would like to contact her about consulting. I'll have all that information here in the notes on this podcast and also in the transcript. So thank you so much again.
Share
Grace Koinange
42:32
Thank you.
Share
Janet Lansbury
42:34
And thank you so much for listening.
Share
42:36
Please check out some of the other podcasts on my website, janetlansbury. com. There are many of them, and they're all indexed by subject and categories. So you should be able to find whatever topic you might be interested in. And both of my books are available in paperback at Amazon. "No bad Kids: Toddler Discipline Without Shame" and "Elevating Childcare: A Guide to Respectful Parenting."
Share
42:58
You can get them in e-book at Amazon, Apple, Google Play or barnesandnoble. com and an audio at audible. com. Actually, you can get a free audio copy of either book at audible by following the link in the liner notes of this podcast. Thank you so much for listening and all your kind support. We can do this!
Share
Add podcast
🇮🇹 Made with love & passion in Italy. 🌎 Enjoyed everywhere
Build n. 1.36.0
Janet Lansbury
Grace Koinange