Monday, May 9, 2022 • 50min
Diving Into Gender Literacy with Schuyler Bailar
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For our 100th episode, Karin is honored to be joined by Schuyler Bailar (he/him), internationally-celebrated inspirational speaker, author, advocate for trans inclusion, body acceptance, and mental health awareness, and the 1st trans athlete on an NCAA D1 men's team.
Join Karin and Schuyler for a discussion on gender literacy, gender affirming treatment, the different phases of transition, therapeutic and medical gatekeeping, Schuyler’s gender literacy course LaneChanger.com, the trauma from misgendering clients, the origins of Schuyler’s first novel “Obie is Man Enough” and much more.
Schuyler Bailar (he/him) is an author, activist, Life Coach and the 1st trans athlete to compete in any sport on an NCAA Division 1 men’s team. Throughout his journey, but particularly in high school, Schuyler struggled with issues of body image and self-esteem, often battling with disordered eating and self-harm. In therapy, it became clear that Schuyler’s real struggle was with gender identity and that he was transgender. Schuyler’s difficult choice – to transition while potentially giving up the prospect of being an NCAA Champion – was historic. His story has appeared everywhere from 60 Minutes to The Washington Post. Schuyler’s tireless advocacy has earned him numerous honors including LGBTQ Nation’s Instagram Advocate for 2020. In 2021, Schuyler also released his first middle-grade novel, "Obie Is Man Enough". Schuyler also launched his gender literacy series LaneChanger.com, an educational resource accessible to every school, business, and team.
Learn more at www.karinlewisedc.com/podcast/episode100
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Transcript
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Speaker 1
00:03
I'm
Karen Lewis
and welcome to Recovery Bites. A show that gets real about recovery where we welcome voices in the field and voices of experience. Join me for candid interviews with experts in eating disorder and mental health recovery listeners can look forward to new perspectives, meaningful conversations, diverse connection and compelling personal narratives that make a powerful difference in how we live episodes.Share
00:35
Focus on life beyond recovery, the good and the not so good. The successes and the challenges and the authentic accounts of recovered lives, not their whole story just bites. I'm also excited to announce that the Karen Lewis Eating Disorder Center is expanding throughout the country.
Share
00:56
If you are an experienced well trained therapist with lived experience whose clinical approach aligns with the values represented in these podcast episodes or if you are seeking treatment, we would love to hear from you. Please go to our website
Karen Lewis
E D C dot com.Share
01:22
All right, everyone, here we go. This is an incredible episode and I hope everyone listens to this. My guest for today is Skylar Baylor and we talk about everything from eating disorders. People who are transgender. We talk about the politics. We talk about medical barriers, therapeutic barriers. I could go on, but I'm just gonna have everyone listen to the episode. Let Skyler tell you about this. All right, here we go.
Share
02:04
Good afternoon, everyone. And welcome to a really exciting episode of Recovery Bites. I want to welcome you all to our 1/100 episode and I am incredibly honored to have our guest on today, Skylar, Baylor Skylar. Welcome to the show.
Share
Speaker 2
02:25
Thank you so much. I'm so excited to be here and so special that it's the 100th episode.
Share
Speaker 1
02:29
Well, we are very honored that, that you are the 100 guests and I am just thrilled to have you. So Skylar, can you tell the listeners a little bit about yourself?
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Speaker 2
02:41
Sure, thanks so much. My name is Skyler. I use he him pronouns. I am 25 but almost 26. I'll be 26 in a couple of days.
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02:50
I am the first openly transgender athlete to compete for a division one men's team in college. I swim for four years at Harvard University. And that provided me the platform to really begin speaking and sharing about my experience as a transgender person, as a transgender athlete, as a Korean American transgender person.
Share
03:07
I think that another really important relevant piece of information as I struggled with an eating disorder in high school. And I actually took a gap year between high school and college and I went to a recovery center, a rehab center to get better.
Share
03:21
And that was actually where I discovered that I am transgender. I went to
OPC
which is centers in, in in Miami
Florida.Share
03:28
And treatment saved my life. I really don't know if I would be here today without it.
Share
03:32
Especially with the providers that that were gender for me that provided me with access to other trans people and learning about trans people. So all of those things informed who I am today and how I work in the world. I think especially how I activate in the world as a Korean American queer, transgender person who has recovered from an eating disorder.
Share
Speaker 1
03:54
So that leads me to so many things that I want to talk about Skylar. I mean, there's just so many things. So I think what I want to start with is what is it like, like what barriers for people if you are going to therapy, you are questioning transgender, you're questioning your identity and have an eating disorder.
Share
04:17
Now, the therapist is the one who actually writes the letter that allows somebody to get surgery. What happens when therapists are not educated on transgender, on gender dysmorphia?
Share
04:37
Like, wow. And when you talk about having an eating disorder, because they can then say this could be more about your eating disorder than anything else. Like I know that's a big place to start, but let's do it. Let's go right there.
Share
Speaker 2
04:53
So let me, let's let's back up just a little bit. The first thing I want to say is that not every transition looks the same, right? So when somebody is transgender and they want to transition, transition is any step or steps that a person takes to affirm gender identity, not every person transitions.
Share
05:08
First of all, and second, all, not every transition looks the same. So some people, yes, they do want to take hormones or get surgeries.
Share
05:16
But some people don't and I think it's super important to recognize that diversity within, even within the transgender population, right?
Share
05:23
The next thing is that I think it's really, really important to recognize and I know we'll dive into this later, but the difference between gender dysphoria and gender and, and body dysmorphia, right?
Share
05:33
So even I stumbled there, it's important because these words are sounding similar and even as you said it, Karen, you said gender dysmorphia. Yeah. No, but it's good. It's good to make that mistake. So we can talk about. So gender dysmorphia doesn't exist. There's no such thing as gender dysmorphia, it's gender dysphoria, right?
Share
05:51
And it's easy to mistake to make, I know that you didn't intend anything but I want, I'm actually really glad that you made that mistake because I think that a lot of people do and then we'll jump into it, I think deeper. But in short, a lot of people confuse them. And gender dysphoria is the distress or discomfort that arises from the in congruence between gender assigned at birth.
Share
06:10
So for me, female and gender identity. So for me mail that in congruence can produce distress and for a lot of people that's clinically significant distress and called again just gender dysphoria, dysmorphia, body dysmorphia with an M is about perfectionism about body and it really is related to self worth issues or, or a feeling of lack of control.
Share
06:33
Basically a cognitive dissonance that needs cognitive reframe and not actually changing anything about one's body. Whereas gender dysphoria can actually be treated by changing things within one's body to be more congruent with one's gender identity.
Share
06:47
So it's, it's very complicated. But the reason that that's the answer to your question is because a lot of, a lot of people think that gender dysphoria is quote just result of an eating disorder like you said, and it's super important for providers to be educated about, hey, what gender dysphoria is and about transgender people's experiences.
Share
07:06
So they can help distinguish what is rooted in an issue of identity, right? Gender dysphoria and what is rooted in an issue of self worth, self control. And other really important and, and difficult but not transgender specific issues, right?
Share
07:23
I think there's a lot there. So I'm not sure where you want me to push in, but that's sort of an overview if you will.
Share
Speaker 1
07:29
So let me take a step back, Skyler. Let's, can we, before we, we, I, and I know I'm the one that jumped into all the this stuff. But can we talk about what your experience was like when you were in high school and with your eating disorder and swimming in the, on the women's team going to treatment.
Share
07:50
Having that realization it was when you said you were working with therapists that were gender affirming that we're helping you get through this talk about this and process it.
Share
07:59
And then what it was like after because I think if we understand maybe if I can say a snapshot of this, which is not the best definition of it, but then we might be able to understand what's happening with therapy, with politics, with the medical system, things like that.
Share
Speaker 2
08:23
Yeah. Okay. So I went to treatment in 2014, literally the day after I graduated from high school, I flew to
Miami
and checked into a PC.Share
08:36
When I say that I had gender affirmation within my, my treatment team, it was really my therapist. So my therapist, Josephine and with our consent, I have shared her name.
Share
08:45
Josephine did a really excellent job of pushing into what was the root cause, right eating disorders as we all know, hopefully are not usually the root cause, right eating disorders are coping mechanism and, and there's something underneath that that's really making a struggle.
Share
09:01
So for me, there was a lot of things that were caused, but one of them was the income groups of my gender identity and my gender assigned at birth. And I didn't know that I didn't have the words for that. But the more we dug into my childhood and we dug into times that I felt more comfortable with myself, I always, I always came back to sort of an eight year old, very boyish Skyler.
Share
09:21
And we talked about how I felt more comfortable with my short, short hair or the fact that people perceive me as a boy. And Josephine was like, let's talk about that. And I was like, no, I don't want to talk about that. And she's like, okay, then we're definitely talking about that.
Share
09:33
And so she, she really pressed me on gender in a way that allowed me to explore. And after a while when I still wouldn't say the word transgender despite knowing it.
Share
09:43
She said, why don't you meet other trans people? There's a place in
Miami
called the Yes Institute that they do trainings regarding trans people and just gender, the gender continuum. And I, I went to a couple workshops and that was where I realized for sure where I could no longer deny this is who I am.Share
10:02
I did struggle after that with having gender affirmation. And this goes, goes back back to your original question about, about therapists sort of, I'm gonna use the word gatekeeping, whether or not trans people can get gender affirming healthcare specifically. So, surgeries and hormones.
Share
10:20
So at that time, when I had realized that I was trans and, and was sure about it, I wanted to go through top surgery.
Share
10:26
And top surgery is a mastectomy for trans, masculine individuals like myself, a double mastectomy removal of breasts and masculine ization of chest and everybody at
OPC
for the most part, the clinical lead and such wouldn't sign my letter.Share
10:41
They said that you know, this was too soon. You don't really know this could be just a phase.
Share
10:47
You know, this is, this is really you're not ready for this. It's too close to you getting out of treatment cause it was right after treatment and nobody would send a letter. And this is, I strongly want to say this is not to disparage any of the providers at the time because they have since come back to me and said, oh my gosh, if I, what I knew now, I would do that differently, I'm so sorry that I didn't sign that letter.
Share
11:06
But at the time and this is really important at the time, all the, all the literature that was out there said you had to be on t on testosterone for a year. Having to have presented yourself as the gender that you identify with for a year, which also what does that mean presenting yourself as the gender? Because then their gatekeeping, what exactly manhood or womanhood looks like?
Share
11:24
There was all this literature that, that, that barred them from signing the letters for me. And I had to eventually I left treatment. And that was when I had asked them to sign the letter was once I had left treatment.
Share
11:33
But over the next probably 6 to 12 months, I sought out therapists that could potentially sign this letter for me. And I went to several that wouldn't even ones that were considered gender therapist. They wouldn't sign my letter.
Share
11:45
And I actually had to find a therapist and I definitely will not name her because she signed a letter saying that she had seen me for a year, which she hadn't, she had seen me twice and signed a letter that said that she was okay with this.
Share
11:56
And that this was, that I had followed all the rules, which I hadn't because she believed in me and she was willing to violate the rules in order to do that. And I'm so thankful that she did because that surgery was life saving for me. Getting top surgery was so important to me.
Share
12:11
So I don't fault any therapist. I don't fault that therapist for breaking the rules and I don't fault the therapist that I had prior or the, you know, providers I had prior who, who followed the rules and therefore didn't provide me with gender affirming healthcare.
Share
12:21
But this is why this education is so important because now when I go back and talk to people, like I said, I've had pretty much every provider that I worked with come back with me and say, gosh, I wish I had known what I know. Now, I wish I had your education Skylar then because I would have been able to better provide for you.
Share
12:39
And that's what we're missing. And so that's why I do the work that I do.
Share
Speaker 1
12:42
And I, I do want to jump in and ask what is it that was just launched? Say a little bit about that because this education is life saving. You're right. Say a little bit about what you're doing with that.
Share
Speaker 2
12:56
So over the past several years, about 67 years of this, I've been speaking about my experience, I gave 100 and two speeches before I graduated from, from Harvard.
Share
13:06
So while I was there, I was doing this work. And then now in the three years since I've graduated, I've done about 400 plus speeches. And what I, what I realized is that this education a is very, very needed be, it can be life saving.
Share
13:19
And see, I cannot reach everybody. And so I took the trainings that I've been doing live, all the live speeches, the live trainings. And I put them into a virtual training platform. Basically a virtual learning series. It's called Lane Changer.
Share
13:32
When you change lanes in swimming, you, you rise in place in stature. So, it's sort of a play on game changer. So it's Lane Changer.
Share
13:41
And it, it brings the education that I've been doing for years now to everybody anywhere. Right. It's a virtual learning platform. You can just go to Lane Changer dot com and buy it and take it immediately. It starts with about a 15 minute reflection on my story gets you engaged, gets you. I think storytelling is the best way to teach.
Share
13:59
Then it goes through a little bit of vocab and then you got the chance to choose between about 40 plus Q and A videos that are all the common topics that I get asked about trans people including is being transit phase. How do I support my trans child? What do I do as a company to be more supportive of trans people?
Share
14:16
What was it like coming out? How do I receive coming out? Right? It has all the common questions and I think that if every provider could take Lane Changer, I think it would better equip them to, to treat and to be respectful to trans people.
Share
Speaker 1
14:31
There's there is actually incredible literature out there.
Share
Speaker 2
14:34
And there's a book, a clinician's guide to gender affirming care and eating disorders.
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Speaker 1
14:39
Thank you. Yeah, it's a great book. It's an incredible book. And by the way, it is our responsibility to be educated on this. It is not your responsibility to come into a therapy room when you're coming to talk to me about your eating disorder and I start asking you questions about gender.
Share
15:00
And so I'm gonna, I'm gonna highly encourage everybody to get educated and look into Lane Changer because it is, it is not the client's job and that can be, that can make it even more off putting for a client to even get to do the work that they really, really truly went for.
Share
Speaker 2
15:24
Yeah. No, it's so it's so important and I want to share this little anecdote because I think this is where where therapists can really really miss.
Share
15:34
I've been mis gendered by therapists before and I had a therapist once that mis gendered me and that is probably one of the worst places to be mis gendered. I mean, there's lots of MS Jennings never, never really pleasant.
Share
15:49
For anyone who doesn't know miss gendered ring is using the wrong pronouns or wrong gendered words to refer to somebody. So for example, I use he him pronouns.
Share
15:56
And if somebody were to call me, she her pronouns, if they were to call me a woman and if they were to call me Miss, that would be considered Miss Jen during right.
Share
16:04
Dead naming is another form of Miss Jen during dead naming is to use a name that that person no longer uses we call it a dead name because the name is dead, it's done. It's not a birth. And a lot of trans people prefer to use the word dead name instead of birth name.
Share
16:17
So I was mis gendered by a therapist a couple of times and I, and I want to explain this sort of cascade and I've actually talked about it with Wendy before directly.
Share
16:29
And she asked me, can you really explain to this group of therapists what it feels like to you? Because I think this is really important. So when I, when I've got mis gendered therapist, the thought process goes very dark, very quickly, it goes from okay. So she doesn't see me correctly. So therefore, I can't be trusted. I'm not trustworthy.
Share
16:45
Can I even claim my gender in the world ever? Should I exist? I don't want to be here. It goes to suicidality very, very fast because if I can't even be seen by the person who's trying to provide me with mental health care and as something so basic as my gender identity, so core as my gender identity, how can I trust this person to do anything else for me? Right?
Share
17:07
How can I trust myself in this world that already doesn't see me anywhere else. So it can be extremely devastating when we are mis gendered, but especially by a provider. And so I always encourage providers to make sure they're asking for their clients, pronouns and then using them and when they mess up, it might happen. Right. We can't, we can't be perfect all the time.
Share
17:28
We all come with our own biases. So we might miss gender somebody and we need to address it immediately and apologize and then move on. It needs to be, he, she, I'm sorry, she and move on. Right. I'm not referring to myself. Obviously, this would be for a trans feminine client perhaps. But I think it's really important to just apologize correct and move on.
Share
17:48
If it's a consistent problem, you really need to do a deep dive on your own. Why are you miss Jen during this person? What biases do you hold in your brain that are encouraging this? Right.
Share
17:59
Do you need to sit and practice every single day and, and correct yourself with pronouns? And I've given this recommendation to other providers before. I've given people assignments, sit down every day for at least five minutes and write a paragraph about your client with the correct pronouns and every time you mess up, correct it. Right. And that's a little exercise you can do.
Share
Speaker 1
18:17
I also want to point out and I could be wrong. But the reason why it's so important to correct it, say I'm sorry and move on is because when it becomes a bigger thing from the therapist perspective, it is now about the therapist, I'm so sorry. I didn't mean to do this and now the client is trying to sue them saying it's okay.
Share
18:39
No one and it's not. But if we just simply say I'm, I'm really sorry, keep moving on there. There are so many pieces of the therapeutic relationship or of any relationship that are, that are really, really important. And so I don't know if you agree with that, but I just wanted to, to throw that out there.
Share
Speaker 2
19:01
No, that's something I tell people often can. Thanks for the addition.
Share
19:05
When, when you, when somebody apologizes profusely, oh my God, I'm so sorry. I didn't mean to do that. Here's why I did that and let me explain myself. I'm so sorry I will never have again. Then the person who's being apologized to feels like they have to take care of the person who's doing the apologizing.
Share
19:21
And so what happens then it becomes about the therapist? Right? So I absolutely agree with what you're saying. I think for the, for, for most people, they don't want to take care of somebody else and nor should they, even if they wanted to.
Share
19:34
The therapist should never put the client in a position for any reason, right? Where the client feels, they must take care of the therapists feelings that's for the therapist to deal with. And I want to say, you know, therapists are people too.
Share
19:46
So you need to find an outlet for that if you feel horrible and you are ruminating about it and you're really struggling because you don't, you're not calling your client the right pronouns or you made a mistake with your client and you really upset them. That's something for you to make space for a feeling, just not in the hour or the 50 minutes that you're with your client.
Share
20:03
So I do encourage you to make space for that, but talk to your supervisor, talk to your therapist, talk to your friends, right?
Share
Speaker 1
20:08
But don't put it on your client if we were going to shift a little bit from the therapeutic relationship or model to, to the medical part of this. Now, let's talk about there, there are more reasons, there's more chances for gatekeeping.
Share
20:27
So what happens when somebody is struggling with an eating disorder and part of them being able to get the transition part you were talking about, which is surgery, they have to be at a certain B M I like what is happening in the medical field that people cannot be people yet you can get plastic surgery and, and, and I mean, no disrespect to anyone who gets plastic surgery.
Share
20:54
But what, why is there so much gatekeeping in the medical field as well?
Share
Speaker 2
21:00
Yeah, I mean, I'm imagining that also exists with plastic surgery too. So, I mean, I think that, you know, there is fat phobia and weight discrimination. I know everybody likes the word fat phobia. So there's weight discrimination and size discrimination, everywhere in the medical field.
Share
21:15
I think it doesn't matter where I think it does absolutely affect trans people. I actually had multiple trans people come up to me and say something like my doctor says, I can't get top surgery until I lose a certain amount of weight.
Share
21:27
And I always think that that's absolutely ridiculous and horrible for many reasons. One be my, is a very racist colonist like colonizer, white supremacist standard as is right.
Share
21:38
We like, we all know, hopefully we know B M I history is not particularly great. And if you don't know, please go
Google
at it's very simple to find just Google B M I and racism and you'll find sources immediately.Share
21:51
So I think it's way, way overdue for us to, to, you know, get rid of B M I as any kind of standard.
Share
21:60
I also know that there are and I think this is really important to say there are doctors out there who will not keep with B M I for top surgery, for example. And I know that because I've heard of people saying yes, this doctor said no to me because of B M I and this doctor, you know, said yes to me.
Share
22:15
I had a really large chest before I had top surgery. And I know people will tell people like, like I used to look and say, well, your chest is too big, you can't get top surgery. Right. And I've heard that happen as well from other people.
Share
22:27
And these are really just doctors essentially saying they are not competent enough to perform a surgery that might be different from what is considered average or quote normal. Right? And I think that we need, again, more education within doctors also add.
Share
22:41
And I think this is really important to remember that this disproportionately affects black and brown folks, right? And indigenous folks and I think that we need to address racism and white supremacy in that space just as much as we need to address transphobia. And they're, they're all interconnected.
Share
Speaker 1
22:59
How do you feel like you're, you're eating disorder was the manifestation of your eating disorder? How did that play into like when you said you had a large chest, like I know that, you know, people that I had anorexia nervosa because I didn't want to have a chest. I wanted to, you know, I didn't like, I wanted to look thin and small and almost look like a boy.
Share
23:25
So how did your eating disorder? And I also want people to understand that your anorexia, anorexia and bulimia came about after you broke your back and you couldn't swim and suddenly you had all this time to think about like what is going on in my life and that's when the eating disorder happened. So or started.
Share
Speaker 2
23:49
So how did it play into what you were struggling with, yeah, I mean, I think that, you know, eating stores are always deeper than the surface. Right. So, even as you said, like you said, something about wanting to look a certain way and that's why you had an eating, you sort of had anorexia.
Share
24:09
And, you know, I, I had imagined, and I'm speaking for you for a second but I'd imagine that it was deeper than that. Right.
Share
Speaker 1
24:14
Wanting to be small, wanting to be adolescent, wanting to be, you know, not grow up, perhaps without a doubt, it was just one of the things that I was very ashamed that I had a chest. And so there are 1000 other things that went into it. And one of them is I was afraid to become a woman, become an adult, become a grown up, become sexual, all these things.
Share
Speaker 2
24:37
Yeah. And I'm so glad that you added that. So I always like, I always like to, to paint that sort of fuller picture because I think that there's so much misinformation about eating disorders. And I want that to want people to understand that, for example, not wanting to have a chest.
Share
24:53
If you are a woman is often not an indicator necessarily immediately that you're trans, for example, but rather that and I know this is common for, for people who have struggle with anorexia and who are, who are women is that they don't, like you said, don't wanna grow up, there's this fear of growing up.
Share
25:09
And what does that mean? How do I become a woman? How do I be sexualized in this world that is massively sexualizing of women, right. And young girls actually.
Share
25:17
So I, in my experience, with my eating disorder, I, there were so many different factors that contributed to sort of the, the height of it if you will.
Share
25:30
I think there were, I grew up with a lot of food rules. I grew up with a lot of I think pressure is just not only at home but in society about food as being I was an elite athlete from a very young age as well. And that contributed to this sort of over focus on health almost orthorexia in ways.
Share
25:48
And when I broke my back, I right before then I had been basically living for swimming. That's all I did is I ate so I could swim. I slept so I could swim. I did my homework on time so I could swim. Everything was about swimming.
Share
26:02
And when I broke my back, everything disappeared suddenly, I felt like I didn't have a purpose anymore. And if we look back retrospectively, I think the reason I dove so unintended, I dove so, you know, strongly and so completely into swimming being my purpose was because I was kind of a shell of a person.
Share
26:19
I really didn't have anything else because I didn't know deep who I was, I felt so disconnected from my gender and from people around me as it was gender was massively important in middle school. And I was so weird and I mean that in the, in the sense of like I people called me weird. I was considered weird.
Share
26:36
I was such a social outcast. I was bullied by boys for not being a quote real boy. I was bullied for girls for not being girl enough, right? So I always got stuck in between. And when I, when I, when I had, when I invested in swimming that gave me a purpose and a purpose I loved, I loved being in the water.
Share
26:53
So when I broke my back, that all disappeared overnight, right? And I went, not only from, from being somebody swam for 20 hours a week to somebody who didn't, but also to somebody who was laying on a bed with a back brace in my whole body and couldn't even pick up a book.
Share
27:07
I couldn't pick up anything that was more than £5. So in that time, I really began struggling and and it was, it was sort of forced to think about who I was, but I didn't know how. And so there, you know, there in lies, the eating disorder because it became a coping mechanism for me to ignore, for me to feel something for me to feel like I had a sense of control.
Share
27:29
For me to control my body in some ways that made me feel more comfortable.
Share
27:34
But I think most of all it was a way to express a deep pain that I had at the time.
Share
Speaker 1
27:39
I know this is slightly off topic, but it just made me think of this. One of the other things that people I'm going to actually encourage for education is your book
OBI
is man enough.Share
27:54
And the reason why I just thought of that is because when you were talking about when you were younger and you were teased that you were, you were teased by the boys because you weren't man enough. You were teased by the girls because you weren't feminine enough. All these things, I have to tell you something, Skylar.
Share
28:09
I read that book and I, I wept through a lot of it. It like I feel my eyes filling up with tears right now.
Share
28:21
That book is so well written and it's a hard book meaning, you know, you were bullied like you were, you were by, by people that you were originally friends with. Like I can't even say enough about it, but it talks about everything. It talks about letting someone go through their own experience.
Share
28:44
You like utilizing and I don't want to anything away, your friend. I think her name was Lucy. Like how things ended in the end that you had to understand she was going through her own experience or you know, all of these things, what it's like, you know, trying to go to the bathroom, right.
Share
29:02
What it's like if you have an injury and you don't want to tell people is because you were bullied and going through this whole thing of like, it's because I really am a boy like, and I know I'm going off on this Skyler, but it is a great educational piece for parents to read, for teachers to read, for nurses, for therapist.
Share
29:23
And that's what I was thinking of when you were talking about your childhood experience. So I know I just went off on a tangent, but it was phenomenal. Can I ask you why you chose to do it in somewhat of a fiction manner?
Share
Speaker 2
29:36
Yeah. Yeah. So Obe is man enough just for everybody to know. It is a fiction novel. It's a middle grade novel. So for 10 and up,
O B
is the main character and he is a Korean American transgender swimmer. He is not me. I, I did write it as fiction.Share
29:53
So many people I think put us together because we're so similar. And what I always say is
OBI
. OBI
is a, is an ode to the boyhood I never had. So I transitioned, I realized that I was trans when I was 18 and I transitioned when I was 19 year, you know, the year between high school and college. Obie comes out when he's 10 or so.Share
30:15
And he transitions before the book begins and that's really important to me because there are so many stories about coming out and about like beginning a transition and like telling everybody that you're trans and I wanted
OBI
to just be himself. I didn't want to focus on his coming out. I didn't want to focus on his transition. There are, there are pieces of it that are relevant in the story.Share
30:38
But I wanted there to be a story about his life beyond that, right?
Share
30:42
And I wanted there to be a story about him as a kid because I want there to be stories about trans kids because we don't see a lot of those. First of all, I definitely didn't see a lot when I was a kid of any.
Share
30:54
And I, and I think it's so important because kids are actually thinking about gender, gender identity solidifies before you start preschool. For the most part, between the ages of 3 to 5 years old is when gender identity solidifies.
Share
31:05
Does that mean every, every kid's gonna realize that they're trans when they are when they're three or five years old? No, you know, because there's so much social pressure, there's so much lack of information, there's so much disenfranchisement of trans people that of course, not every trans kids gonna realize their trans when they're 3 to 5 years old, but they can, and that is so important to recognize.
Share
31:22
And that's why I think this education is not only important for providers, you know, for trans people, but also for kids so that they understand that gender is bigger than what they're usually taught.
Share
31:33
And when we provide that education to kids, they get to express exactly who they are with the language and the articulation that they need. And people will say well, but then Skylar, we're gonna make these kids trans, they're not, kids aren't gonna do what they don't want to do. They're very good at being themselves, in fact, way better than we are as adults.
Share
31:50
If you give them the language, they're going to be able to better explain themselves, right? They're going to be nicer to people who are different from them and yes, you might confuse them. You might and you know what if you do? Amazing because it gives them the space to wonder who am I? And if they end up not being transgender, their assist gender, right?
Share
32:10
So not transgender person and they question their gender when they're a child. Awesome. You have now given that cis gender kids, something that most cis gender people will never have. Most cis gender people will never question their gender identity and therefore never come to a solid healthy grounded internal conclusion of who they are.
Share
32:28
They're gonna base their gender identity based on what other people have said that it has to be what stereotypes are what gender roles and expectations they are. So,
OBI
is man enough is a kid's book. And it's a fiction novel because I wasn't openly trans when I was a kid.Share
32:40
I didn't know who I was. Then I was bullied very similarly to
OBI
because I presented myself as a, as a boy, I presented myself in a way that people received me as a boy. And so I very much had a trans childhood if you will, but I didn't name it as such. And I want other kids to have that access. And so that's where OBI
comes in.Share
Speaker 1
32:60
It's a really beautiful book. And, and I appreciate when you're saying you wanted something to be written about life after a trans the transition because this is similar to what I'm doing with the podcast. This is not a podcast about. So tell me all about your eating disorder. What did you do? How did this is about?
Share
33:18
Let's talk about life after because life after is still complicated and it's amazing. It's, it's everything, it's complex, it's rich, it's beautiful. It's scary. And so this is why I do this podcast is because I don't want to hear the stories of when I was in it. I want people to hear what it's like.
Share
33:39
And just for a little bit of background, for any listeners who don't know part of it is because I used to have clients that would come in and say to me I'm not doing it right. I was told once I recover that my life is going to be perfect. And I'm like, oh, I'm so sorry you weren't, you weren't told the truth because that doesn't exist, that life doesn't exist.
Share
34:02
So then somebody feels like they're failing at recovery. And so, and I love that you show all parts of, of a young soul going through junior high and high school and swimming and all this and friends. And it's just a really beautiful book. I just can't say enough about it.
Share
Speaker 2
34:23
So I appreciate it.
Share
Speaker 1
34:25
Yeah. Yeah, it's amazing. So if we're gonna go back with eating disorders and transgender, what about treatment? Meaning are there barriers? What happens when people try to get treatment?
Share
34:43
Now you and I are a board member for within health and one of the things that I love about it and you love about it, actually, I don't know why I just said what you love about it. I don't even know what you love about it. Skyler. But one of the things that I love is that because it's a completely virtual program.
Share
35:03
There, there aren't these barriers that are gonna get in the way of, you know, who says I'm sorry, this is an all women's program or this is an all male program. And I also want to say programs are growing with gender identity. They are, they are sort of starting to come up and understand. But not entirely. So what are the barriers you see to treatment?
Share
Speaker 2
35:29
I want to say a quick, just know, I noticed that you have said I'm always big on language. So I just want to give a little bump on language, especially for anybody who's listening. I know that you said sort of eating disorders and transgender.
Share
35:41
And I think it's important to say and transgender people or, and transgender clients or, and transgender trans nous is another way you can turn it into a now.
Share
35:48
But a little just bump, the reason is, is not that there's a huge issue with saying and transgender, it just can make transgender sound like this like, oh this, this, this, this thing of transgender, oh, the transgender is, oh right. And sometimes language can be a way that we really show respect for people. I know you respect me. I know you respect trans people. So this is more for the listeners.
Share
36:08
I just encourage making sure we use transgender as an adjective when we don't, we really can kind of dehumanize trans people, right? Or dehumanize the trans population if you will. So, you know, evening stores and the trans population, eating disorders and trans nous eating disorders and treating trans clients, etcetera.
Share
Speaker 1
36:27
So just a little note on language, I am so glad that you said that because one of the things that we have talked about prior to the show started is that when somebody is put in a diagnosis or a label or whatever, they become one dimensional and we don't see all other parts of them. And so I'm really grateful that you corrected that. Thank you.
Share
Speaker 2
36:50
Thank you.
Share
36:51
Okay. So barriers to treatment, I mean, one of the biggest various treatment for trans people and eating disorders, I think you named it, which is that it's eating disorders are considered a women's issue and they're considered a mostly like white cis gender straight women's issue.
Share
37:06
Eating disorder spaces, I think historically have excluded queer people together, especially just in the narrative, excluded people from lower socioeconomic backgrounds.
Share
37:16
Excluded people who are not white.
Share
37:19
And especially people who are not women if you ask pretty much any audience. And they've done this many times before trainings when you picture anorexia, who do you picture, what does that person look like? And people will almost always say a thin white woman, right? If you ask about sexuality, they'll probably say she's straight. If you ask about gender identity, they're definitely not gonna say she's trans.
Share
37:39
So it's super important to recognize that it's geared towards cis women.
Share
37:43
And treatment is geared towards that even if you go, I mean, if when we were looking at like websites for treatment centers, a lot of things are like frilly and pink, which there's nothing wrong with pink. In fact, I even have a tattoo on my wrist that says, I believe in pink. But I think that when people, when we make this, it's about making it feminized essentially.
Share
38:00
That's what they've aligned it with. And I think there's a danger to that. There's a deep danger to that. Eating disorder, eating sort of affect, you know, everybody indiscriminately. Right. There's eating centers do not discriminate. However, August and Eating disorders disproportionately affect queer and trans people.
Share
38:18
In fact, some 79%, a recent study, I read 79% of trans masking individuals struggle with the disorder. 79%, the you know, general women population is 13% which is also massive, by the way, 13% is already really high population.
Share
38:34
But 79%. Okay. So and queer and queer men are the same and not same statistic but more it's more prevalent. So when we think about the fact that the prevalence within the queer and trans community is so high for eating disorders, why are there so few treatment centers that are really at actively engaging in gender and sexuality informed care? Right? That's a huge issue.
Share
38:59
And there's so there's, you know, there's a growing number of people identifying as non binary as well due to the to the reach of like language, right? Where, where people are understanding their genders more which is awesome.
Share
39:11
But the barrier there is stigma, right? Oh This, this is a women's issue. I can't get treatment for it.
Share
39:17
There's actually, I think growing data as well within like cis male populations of issues with the knees or is that just masked as other things? Right. Doesn't look like any sort of looks like intense bodybuilding or intense, like, I don't know, nutrition for sports, what people will write it off is like, oh, that's fine. That's a man. He can't have any sort of, right.
Share
39:37
And these really hurt everyone because eating disorders are not one dimensional, just like trans people aren't one dimensional, like you just said.
Share
39:45
So I would say that sort of stigma and stereotype is really, really harmful beyond that. A lot of trans people, a lot of marginalized people, especially sort of black, a specific segment. Black trans people have really high rates of discrimination within just medical care in general and are less likely than to reach out to medical care. And I can't speak from personal experience as a black trans person.
Share
40:11
But having read about a lot of that medical discrimination and we know that that prevalent in many different ways.
Share
40:18
There's, there's already a distrust of healthcare for good reason, right?
Share
40:24
So I think when we consider all these barriers, the way we, we dismantle them is a by being anti racist and we all need to be doing our anti racism trainings.
Share
40:34
And really investing as a daily practice in that. And also just just general education about diversity, right.
Share
40:41
Lane Changer is a way that you can learn about trans people, but that's just one thing. Right.
Share
40:46
We do address lots of things in Lane Changer because I'm a very intersectional person, but there's more to address beyond that. Right. So, I could go on forever about this, but I'm gonna pause there.
Share
Speaker 1
40:56
Well, I, I actually, I'm sort of like, don't pause, like, I mean, anything else that you want to say about it? I mean, it is, it is critical for people to understand this.
Share
41:05
I mean, I also want to point out you and I in this dialogue, as you said, you know, how much I respect people and that some of my words were not appropriate that I was using and you and I are are nice to each other like this, this is not, this is a hard conversation sometimes when people are feeling misunderstood miss gendered, you know, the medical community doesn't appreciate that.
Share
41:34
Like I'm going to say keep going Skylar because this is very, very important.
Share
Speaker 2
41:40
Yeah. Okay. Well, another thing that I think is really, really important for providers, especially to help reduce these barriers is on an individual level, right? So like I said earlier, getting educated on, on what it means to be transgender, meeting a trans person.
Share
41:53
So again, you can do that through Lane Changer because there's a significant amount of my story in there. So you can actually sit and feel like, you know, a trans person that's a huge way to sort of step in without putting trans people in your life on, on the, on the spot, right?
Share
42:09
We don't want to if I tell people like, oh, you need to learn what it means to be trans, that does not mean go ask all the trans people in your personal life to explain to you what it means to be trans. It means pay people who do this work for, for a living. So example, Lane Changer, right?
Share
42:24
To, to learn from them.
Share
42:26
But beyond that, one of the things I find that's really a barrier in, in giving great gender affirming healthcare is actually our own biases, right? I'm gonna go back to the beginning of this podcast when we, when we don't, when we miss the fact that we are all transfer, we are all racist. We are all white supremacists. We are all sexist and misogynist. Why not?
Share
42:47
Because we're horrible people, but because we live in this world, we are all born and raise. It doesn't matter where you are, you are born and raised if you live on earth, which everybody listening does, right? In a white supremacists, misogynistic, transphobic, homophobic society. And we have to start with that acceptance saying, okay, that's where I started.
Share
43:05
And it doesn't make me a bad person to have these biases. It makes me a bad person when I don't address the biases, right? And I don't even think that this is a personal belief. So I don't know if other people would agree with me, but I think it's unlikely that I'm going to be, or anybody is going to be able to accurately, completely dissolve all of our biases.
Share
43:25
That's not the end goal, right? Similar to recovering from any sort of the goal is not perfection. It's being aware. I think it's about progress, right about saying okay. I now know here in my soft spots here in my heart spots here are the things that I'm not great at here are things that are I am great at and how can I best practice with those understandings? Right?
Share
43:44
Was I raised in a really like white Christian homophobic area and I really need to dive into religious diversity that I need to dive into gender diversity, sexuality diversity. And I am going to recognize that it's going to be hard for me.
Share
43:59
And on a personal level, I think dissecting these things is so important for therapists because if we sit and listen to all the education and we're like, yeah, yeah, I understand the right words. I understand the right diversity. I understand.
Share
44:10
I have to be good at these X Y and Z things, but we don't actually dissect the our own humanity as we do that if we don't actually address how we feel, I think we really lose a lot of that work. So I encourage therapists if they are uncomfortable with certain issues.
Share
44:25
If you listen to this conversation, for example, and you're finding yourself feeling uncomfortable, you're finding yourself being like, no, I don't believe in that are like a knee jerk reaction of some kind therapists are really good at logic in themselves out of that being like, oh, but this about that, about this know, hold on to that negative feeling and, and address it, right?
Share
44:43
Make, make some space for that feeling. There's probably a reason you feel that way. If you're resistant to me and my masculinity in my manhood, maybe there's something about masculine manhood, you need to dissect if you're a man, assist man specifically, maybe you feel insecure about the fact that I'm able to quote, just claim my manhood even though it's not truly what it is.
Share
45:02
But sometimes that's the, that's what I hear from other cis men is that they feel insecure because I'm able to be a man in a way that I wasn't quote born, it's very complex.
Share
45:12
But usually when we have these resistances or these knee jerk reactions, these feelings towards marginalized groups, it's because we have some sort of internal battle that we need to dissect and that will push your own therapy, your own evolution forward.
Share
45:25
So it's good no matter how you look at it, but it will make you a better provider because you'll be able to come from a place of grounding as opposed to a place of like, just lodging your logic in yourself through whatever bias you might have.
Share
Speaker 1
45:37
I am so glad that I asked you to keep going because this is incredible. And again, I love the fact that you brought in the idea. Like if you're listening to this and there's parts that make you feel uncomfortable, then you need to, you need to go deeper because it's, it's just, it's true.
Share
45:57
And this is also what I love about the podcast. It's just you and I having a dialogue and hopefully people are listening, sort of like, it's like they're eavesdropping into our conversation and being like, oh, that makes me uncomfortable. Like, okay, great.
Share
46:09
Don't look away from that, look into it. Why? So I think it's wonderful Skyler. I am truly sorry to say that we are actually going to have to wind this down. Is there anything that I didn't ask you that you would like to share with listeners? Anything at all?
Share
Speaker 2
46:29
Yeah, I mean, I'll say, none of these, none of this education happens in a vacuum. You'll notice that throughout the conversation I've brought in many times, you know, race equity, and anti racism as a primary thing we talked about weight discrimination.
Share
46:42
I think able ism is a big part of also eating a sort of recovery and a lot of people who are also disabled and trying to recover from any sort of, there's also barriers there. None of this happens in a vacuum right now. We've got 94 as of April 13th, 90 for anti transgender bills going around the country.
Share
46:58
94 there are over 230 anti LGBTQ plus bills going around the country. We also got abortion bans going around the country have got critical race theory bands going around the country. None of these things are happening in a vacuum.
Share
47:09
And the reason I'm naming this and making it political for a second is because people's lives are on the line, right? There are kids dying because of these bills. And again, it's bigger than just trans and queer people. It's about trying to control anybody who violates the white cis gender heterosexual norm, right?
Share
47:28
And, and also like upper middle class as well. And I think it's really important for us to recognize that and the work that we do here from an individual level, right? Addressing your own bias and leaning into that discomfort expanding it really saying, why do I feel uncomfortable instead of trying to just shove it away?
Share
47:45
Up to the really big things of of having every treatment center have gender informed care, right?
Share
47:50
And having trans consultants say, hey, here's how you can be more gender for all of these levels are so important and they will absolutely save lives and the work that providers do it are doing is so so important and So the more that we can make it more competent and more expansive, more comprehensive, the better I am here talking to you Karen because of providers who saved my life.
Share
48:12
I am here because my therapist saved my life. I'm here because my therapist,
OPC
Josephine saved my life. I'm here because of the treatment centers that I went. Right. Wendy's first treatment center. OPC
.Share
48:22
These places have consistently, these people have saved my life and it's because they took the chance to be a little bit more open than they maybe thought they could and we all can do that. All can be just a little bit more open and that will absolutely save somebody's life.
Share
48:39
And so I encourage everybody to, to lean in Skylar from the bottom of my heart.
Share
Speaker 1
48:45
I cannot thank you enough. Not only for being a guest on this podcast, but being the 100th episode and sharing this is like the tip of the iceberg and it kind of gives me chills a little bit how much more needs to be talked about. But I just, I just want to thank you again, like I said, from the bottom of my heart. Thank you for being here.
Share
Speaker 2
49:09
My pleasure. Thank you so much and thanks for, for doing this education for folks. I really appreciate it.
Share
Speaker 1
49:14
All right, everyone that does it for another episode of Recovery Bites. I look forward to speaking with each and every one of you next time, take care and stay safe.
Share
49:30
We hope you enjoyed this week's episode of Recovery Bites. Be sure to visit Recovery Bites podcast dot com to join the conversation access show notes, listen to past episodes and more. You can also find us by searching for Recovery Bites on
Apple
podcast, Spotify
and major podcast streaming players. For weekly episode releases. You can follow us at at Recovery Bites pod on Instagram
.Share
50:01
If you're interested in becoming a guest on the show or to submit a guest request, please visit
Karen Lewis
C D C dot com forward slash podcast. Sign up to begin the process. I'd also like to send out a heartfelt. Thank you to my producer Gen Galvin. It is unbelievable the magic she does behind the scenes. Alright, everyone see you next week for another recovery bite. Thanks for listening.Share
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