Friday, Apr 29, 2022 • 55min
Gunnar Greve: Alan Walker, the metaverse, and why Web3 will 'completely change the music industry'
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Gunnar Greve believes, with all his heart, that Web3 and decentralized networks are about to turn the music industry upside down. In a good way.
Greve is the long-term manager of Alan Walker, the Norwegian-British electronic music sensation whose tracks have been streamed across audio and video no less than 50 billion (!) times... including more than 5 billion times in China.
In addition, Greve is a co-composer of Alan Walker's music (including the 2015 global mega-smash, Faded).
But all of that is just part of why Greve joins MBW founder, Tim Ingham, on this MBW Podcast (supported by Voly Music https://www.volymusic.com/ ).
Alan Walker's background is intertwined with the world of video games. Walker is a video games design geek, and proud of it. His music career began when, as a teenager, he began sharing his epic compositions with fellow video games fans online.
Today, Walker (with Greve's help) has devised his own entire fictional world – The World Of Walker – within which his fans, the Walkers, are (not surprisingly!) the good guys.
This world extends to Walker's music videos, which have racked up over 11 billion views on his YouTube channel... which happens to be the world's 11th biggest music artist channel on the platform.
It's no great shock, then, that Gunnar and Alan are rather enthused about the possibilities for Web3's combination with music – and the impact it can have on artist-fan relationships.
If you're growing a little weary of all the chatter around the metaverse, NFTs and the blockchain, this is just the pep talk you need. The Music Business Worldwide Podcast is supported by Voly Music https://www.volymusic.com/
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Talking about
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Gunnar Greve
Tim Ingham
Transcript
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Break
Tim Ingham
00:28
Hello and welcome to a really great Music Business Worldwide podcast.
Share
00:33
My name is Tim Ingham, the founder of Music Business Worldwide and today I'm joined by
Gunnar Greve
, who, amongst many other achievements, is best known as the manager of Alan Walker
as well as a co composer on Walkers music.Share
00:48
Would you like to hear some mind boggling stats?
Share
00:51
Of course you would.
Share
00:52
Alan Walker
is a Norwegian British DJ and producer. He's 24 years old and his music has been streamed ready for this 50 billion times globally, 50 billion times globally and more than five billion times in China
alone. He's also pretty big in other parts of the world to Alan Walker's
YouTube
channel has over 41 million subscribers, making him currently the world's 11th biggest global Artist channel on the platform.Share
01:24
On that
YouTube
channel. Alan Walker's
official music videos have been viewed more than 11 billion times and he has over 115 million followers across his social platforms.Share
01:37
Just the other week,
Alan Walker
signed a really interesting agreement with a company called co write to launch, quote new experiences for his fan base via Web three and Blockchain technology.Share
01:49
This I pre warn you is not the last time. Web three will get a mention on this podcast before I get into my discussion with Gunnar, you really need to know some important things about
Alan Walker's
background.Share
02:02
He didn't get famous from a singing competition on TV or from a worldwide tiktok trend.
Share
02:09
Alan Walker's
music career has its roots in the world of video games.Share
02:13
As a teenager fascinated by gaming and graphic design Walker began sharing epic and sweeping compositions online with communities who shared his passion for interactive entertainment.
Share
02:24
His career took off, but he never let go of his love for Unreal Universes and in fact created his very own story based world, the world of Walker within which the Walkers that's his fans are very much shock horror.
Share
02:39
The Good Guys.
Share
02:40
Alan Walker's
music videos reflect and augment the world of Walker and its narratives giving his fans and ever evolving fictional story to immerse themselves within.Share
02:51
Unsurprisingly a gaming design acolyte who has created a complete virtual universe in the heads of his fans is rather infused about music's connection to the metaverse and how Web Three will affect music fandom in the years ahead.
Share
03:05
That goes to for his manager, Gunnar, who also founded m er recordings to which
Alan Walker
is signed with his catalog, then licensed through Sony
music globally.Share
03:16
Another interesting thing about Gunnar for more than two years until fairly recently and in addition to his work with
Alan Walker
, Gunner was the M. D.Share
03:25
Of liquid state, which is a joint venture record label co owned by both
Tencent
music and Sony
music and based in Hong Kong
running liquid state gave Gunnar a real education in how to crack the Chinese market and many other asian markets with electronic artists from all over the world.Share
03:45
Again, I pre warn you fair warning if like me, you're slightly cynical or even skeptical about the possibilities of Web three, the metaverse, N. F. T. S, etcetera.
Share
03:56
Gunnar Greve
is about to shake your internal naysaying with enthusiasm, passion and a whole lot of know how gonna grieve. Welcome to the MBW podcast. You've done many things in music and look after a number of clients across label publishing and management, most famous of course about Alan Walker
and that's mainly what we're gonna talk about today.Share
04:19
Can you give us some background first on how the development and build of Allen's career has been different perhaps from the average Artist and the way that you've tried to incorporate a almost fantastical or fantasy world, almost video games type world into Alan's career.
Share
Gunnar Greve
04:39
Well, tim I think when we when we started I met Alan, I found him on
YouTube
and met them in person for the first time in 2015. So so it's quite quite a bit of time since now.Share
04:49
And when we started out, Allen opened up the world for me into the world of gaming and online communities.
Share
04:55
It kind of made me coming from a hip hop and urban background from the nineties to see a lot of similarities in resemblance to kind of subcultural movements, which, you know, hip hop and rap was kind of what I was a part of and and we've seen numerous ones in the decade before, and I think to me that was really opening.
Share
05:12
It was a mind boggling door opener and and invite into a world of an online community of gamers and creators basically that shaped alums and my own vision and view of how we should, how we should build his brand and how we should what approach we should take when, you know, trying to cater to an audience that has a very different and I would say pretty high level of skepticism when it comes to new content and new creations.
Share
05:40
So, you know, with that in mind, we wanted to create an Allen was very early.
Share
05:45
You know, a lot of people ask the early years, what's that mask about is it hiding? And you know, what is he, does he have a big scar on his face? What's the deal?
Share
05:53
But the whole mask hoodie, you can see that we were watching a bit of mr robot at the time, which everyone probably remembers as a very popular series, but but it was very much, you know, catering to a to a young demographic of online gamers and an online community where equality and being, you know, a unity and equality is very important for that demo and for that audience.
Share
06:16
So the mask was more so a a sign and a sign of solidarity and unity.
Share
06:21
You know, anyone could be
Alan Walker
and any, you know, Alan Walker
could be anyone of his Walkers. And I think that's an empowering message within that young demographic of bedroom producers, gamers and creators that you know, in many senses are multidisciplinary because they sit and game quality duty for three hours.Share
06:39
Then they create them. Then they do a chi go remix with some stamps they find found online and then they go and and and do you know, digital digital design or or graphical design or maybe even go and do programming.
Share
06:52
You know when I met Allen, he had developed his first mobile game at the age of 14 and my first night at home with the
Walkers
, the real Walkers
, A.Share
07:01
K. A. His family, him and his younger brother were laying on the floor assembling a computer and I'm talking about not like a building set, but like circuit boards stuff.
Share
07:12
So that was kind of, it was opening up a new world to me and we really wanted to create something far beyond a DJ, a song, you know, a name and a face. We wanted to create something where people could kind of live and come be in our world.
Share
07:29
And I was a long, long answer to a short and very on point question tim but I think summarize it for us.
Share
07:36
It's always been about I remember back in the day a guy after the digital revolution started saying now we have to realize it's a constant Artist to audience cycle and back that's the constant cycle. You now have to keep that going all the time.
Share
07:52
But whereas I would say for us and where we're at now, it is really a creator to co creator and back in an endless, seamless you know, circle. And and that's really that's really the essence of what we tried to capture.
Share
Tim Ingham
08:08
Just briefly for those who, I'm sure everyone listening knows who
Allen Walker
is or at least knows one of his hits, but They May not know what the world of Walker actually is.Share
08:18
So before we come onto Web three and all of the exciting possibilities and the fact that Alan's been had had more than a foot in the world which it seems the whole music industry wants to get into right now. What is the world of Walker? What was the concept behind it?
Share
Gunnar Greve
08:30
So just quickly, because I do think a guy here in the U. S. Told me a bit of a while back there seeing the numbers from Allen's channels and and and catalog saying that, you know, this is probably the biggest Artist in the world I never heard about.
Share
08:42
So it might need a bit of reintroduction on Alan's behalf as well, Allen is and was a young man still is 24 so two years of age but he made an instrumental primarily aimed at gamers online that was called fade in 2015, dropped it on N. C. S. A British, beautiful
YouTube
platform for creators and gamers that want to share their music, you know, with no copyright restrictions to it basically as a as a as a marketing tool.Share
09:10
And and from there he grew and and we met each other and together wrote the top line and and did the end production of what is faded together with our team and from there on up it's built, it's you know, it's been an incredible build and an incredible journey. It's amassed, Allen has amassed about 140 million Followers across all platforms.
Share
09:30
It's 50 billion global streams, audio video to date and just a staggering number because
ASia
was very early on a heavy, heavy focus for us and and I think we've now surpassed five billion streams and faded just in China
, whereas you know, Spotify sitting at one, I don't know 1.5. So that's Alan.Share
09:47
And and going coming from, you know, the atypical background, he's not your typical superstar DJ, he is more the kid next door, he is the kind of quiet maybe even a bit introvert boy in class who who has a lot to say and a lot to do but does it and expresses it in a very different way than the loudest boys in the class, just put it like that.
Share
10:09
So, you know, we then built and, and tried and wanted to build and create much like his universe and work gaming, whether that was the first person shooter games or you know, Open World Games like League Of Legends and so on or anything else in in his movie and film world as well. We wanted to take components from that.
Share
10:28
We wanted to create this universe where the Walker is is is a movement and a solidarity, a community of solidarity, where it's about, you know, about a cliche of a of a of a vision and go, which is to unite to create a better world for all and so we, you know, with that in in place, we started building out the storyline that basically spans 3000 years back and goes about the few 100 years into the future and you're following the ancient Walkers and now the modern day Walkers with Alan in in in in kind of not lead position, but you know, in the core of what they do and it's about, you know, it's about standing up against the establishment, it's about, you know, doing getting right, but all the grown ups has gotten wrong in the years that passed, so, you know, I can go, I can go on for four hours teams, you probably understand already, but the world of Walkers have become really a diverse world of immersive entertainment where, you know, go on fandom Vicky, where you can read pages and pages and pages about characters happenings, you know, different locations and environments and we have everything from avatars to drones to, to intricate storylines that stands over 3000 years.
Share
Tim Ingham
11:42
So it's because it's quite quite of an animal dumb question, apologies, but if I if I wanted to experience the world of Walker, can I just go and find it online, or is this in the in the heads of the fans? Is this sort of an ever evolving storyline that's actually kind of offline? Like where is the world of Walker?
Share
Gunnar Greve
12:00
It's extremely good question tim so giving up a bit of our secrets now, we, we very early on, like I said, created the co creator and back, right, which means essentially you're not building a Artist audience situation, You want to try to build a community and community has been in the core of everything we've done since the, since the start.
Share
12:19
So one of the very first things we did was I found a company in the U. K. To help me fish and find email addresses for the 1000 most engaged fans when Alan had what, 18,000 subscribers on his
YouTube
?Share
12:32
And you know, way before we dropped, like faded, even when he just was getting started with his instrumental and we just started working, probably not super, probably big shady to go and fish those addresses, but we got the 1000 most engaged online users on his
YouTube
channel Facebook
, and Instagram. And then what we did was basically create a closed platform online.Share
12:53
My, my father kind of inspired. He was like, there's no fan club these days when I was part of the Beatles fan club, we got the Fancy in once a month. We were waiting like kind of realizing that what you access on social media is accessible for everyone and everywhere.
Share
13:09
So we wanted to create this enclosed community and online but closed page, a close closed platform where we got, now we're about 100 and 3000 registered Walkers, it's a secret platform, you have an identity, which is just a number,
Alan Walker
number zero, I walk number one and then so on.Share
13:28
And we're 100 and 3000 and, and this is a platform where you know, whether it's fan fiction being shared, it's just a community forum where you discuss and chat with your fans where you arrange for the next concert you go, we've seen, you know, more and more giving, you know, not responsibility to giving opportunities to the fans to engage and initiate activities of their own have just created and made this community more and more vibrant.
Share
13:57
So to answer your question, that's where the Walkers at least the registered an official ones live and interact communicate, chat and thrive and and build the community on words.
Share
14:07
But if you were to kind of expiry, Get an in depth understanding of what this is, our
YouTube
channel is clearly where I would recommend you to start, because it is all built, you know, we had 18,000 when I started working the YouTube
channel is today the 11th biggest Artist channel in the world with over 40 million subscribers and we're doing about the quarter of billion views per month.Share
14:28
And what you'll see with Allen's channel is that yes, the music videos are of course key and all of the music videos have scripts and, and, and, and storylines that are tied in with the whole world of Walker universe.
Share
14:42
And that's how we tied, that's how we kind of captured people's interest and fascination I think, and then what you will also see is that beyond those music videos, we have a lot of what people call shoulder content, it being performance videos or it being, you know, big, big livestream events or gaming streaming or even some brand partnerships where we, we've done activities and created content that ties in with the world, the Walkers.
Share
15:08
So all of the, all of the world is kind of free for you to see and explore on his
YouTube
channel and then pages like fandom Vicky and onwards have a lot of info online where you can access, find out more and really partake in this and you know what's down the line is the Walker verse, and and that is where my head and my time and my passionate been completely consumed by and and and and in over the last six months and and probably will for the coming years.Share
15:39
So, we didn't know when we started with him and back in 2015 that, you know, the metaverse was gonna be the future, but sitting here now with the community Allen with his music, his fan base and and everything around it, it does feel like the metaverse couldn't have come at a better time in time and place.
Share
Tim Ingham
16:00
Well, it sounds to me like Alan, with your help has been doing things for the past seven years, that the music industry is suddenly scrabbling to do post
Covid
. So, that gives us particularly interesting bent to this conversation before we come on to the possibilities of the metaverse. And Allen's very natural relationship with that kind of fan engagement.Share
16:26
Let me ask you about the reason we're talking really, is that there was a news story about Allen that came out just the other week, and it's about you guys hooking up with a company called Co right?
Share
16:37
We've talked about them on this podcast before, which is a fan funding platform traditionally. So, fans would be able to take a stake in an Artist music now. Co writers now, married that with the
Blockchain
, which is exciting to see.Share
16:52
But you're talking about Alan having over 100,000, you know, subscribers to his own world, let alone his channel, his own world. How does this change the future of the music business?
Share
17:04
This kind of idea that fans take a steak, have a, have a participation in the music and get return from the music for for for for investing in in an Artist they love like in the first place, is this really going to change a historic dynamic whereby artists received the advance from the label, they work their tails off to pay that advance back and then they hopefully get another advance.
Share
17:28
Like is that now under threat by this almost director fan relationship or direct create a relationship we put it and and funding actually coming direct from those fans.
Share
Gunnar Greve
17:40
I think it's a very good question, but it's kind of complex, kind of complex and intricate to give a good answer to, I think for what it's worth.
Share
17:50
I think it's not only a threat, I think Web three, I think decentralized economy and fan driven or fan fueled activities, participation and direct involvement like I said, created the co creator, that's gonna change completely 1 80 the entire, not only music, but entertainment industry as a whole.
Share
18:08
And if you look kind of closely at it and and go a bit deeper, you will see that the gaming industry is already completely changing just on the back of this and on the fact of of of these new opportunities and technology coming in. You know, it seems weird, why would we work with a fan fund platform, you know, Alan doesn't need funding.
Share
18:26
It's almost like a bit rude for a guy who has that many followers views and streams to ask people to fund this music. It's not about that, it's, you know, I think oh right represents a very interesting and exciting.
Share
18:38
Not only team but also a mindset and a view of the future. I think a lot of new and emerging art will find their way and their home and their breakthrough through a fan funding and and crowdfunding platform. So I think in that sense these are guys that we want to work with.
Share
18:54
But what I find the most interesting about these guys and in general the world of web three and Blockchain technology is the fact that, you know, they really see how this and how decentralized economy but also decentralized consumption in a sense and kind of tailored and customized experience and content.
Share
19:16
The music is going to completely change the industry that we all, you know love living and and will be living in and off for the next decades to come. I do think, you know, the labels who don't, I don't think him for once, let's hope we learn from our past mistakes.
Share
19:33
You know, the big threat to the music industry with napster and pirate, They turned out to be the salvation and the, you know, the door opener to a future which will go way beyond both in revenue, but more so just in in in the opportunity and the ability to to really create magical experiences for our audiences.
Share
19:55
And we thought that the labels fought it, the music industry fought it and suit up and down. I think Blockchain decentralization and everything that comes with it should if you know, if embraced and viewed as opportunities in the future.
Share
20:08
Then I think, you know, the labels whether it's major or minor which is independent or or not, they will, they will have a huge part of that and a huge play to a role to play in that world. But those who kind of brush it off or try to post it or keep it away, I think it's gonna have a part time doing that.
Share
Tim Ingham
20:30
Yes, I keep teasing the fact that we're going to get deeper into into Web three and the possibilities especially around the metaverse. I do have one question before we get there because it lays the groundwork for Allen and his global audience.
Share
20:45
Gonna spent 22 years in a bit, I believe you told me in a minute running liquid state, which is the joint venture label between
Sony
and Tencent
music, I believe.Share
20:56
I wanted to know what that taught you about different global audiences and breaking artists, especially in
China
. I'm guessing that in this context, Alan's every man appeal this, this person, this mysterious person behind the mask.Share
21:14
He could be, could be anyone could be almost any any race, any gender, any any demographic that possibly helped you break the Artist in different parts of the world. But but please tell me so your experiences of liquid state, what it taught you and specifically what you've learned breaking Allen in different parts of the world.
Share
Gunnar Greve
21:32
So a good question. I I had the opportunity very early on. I've always been, you know, fascinated by the asian region and the opportunities that lies there in.
Share
21:41
I traveled very early on in my career and tried to really understand where and how it works. And and it also was, you know, as a natural having a lot of time and and and spending a lot of energy and business in the US as well in europe. You know, how it distinguished itself and how it represented so much other opportunities, different opportunities than the rest of the world and the mere number of the facts.
Share
22:05
We're talking, you know,
China
and China
and India
combined as soon three billion people enough said so we very early on after having built a solid foundation for Allen's first three singles in europe, we really realized with the help of our labor partners Sony
and and others. We saw that, you know, we're really appealing and capturing an audience and growing a community in ASia
faster than anywhere else.Share
22:32
Whether it's in the Melody language, whether it's in in the brand. The fact that we're catering this gaming community and this this very typical kind of D. J. Or E. D. M. Or Artist producer brand format and and, and world I think really really appealed to them.
Share
22:47
So we decided early on to to spend our time in in
ASia
and spend our focus in ASia
and build that platform because we also felt that, you know, most of our colleagues and competitors when or if having a hit or a foundation and a runway would jump on the first plane to L. A. And try and break the U.Share
23:02
S. And my my analysis was simple is, you know, I think there's a way everyone is doing that makes it harder and more difficult Over here. It's an oversaturation of content than repertoire in the market. And over there is, you know, an audience that is underserved under catered to.
Share
23:18
And and that was the decision. So we jumped on a plane to Beijing I think Alan and myself in 16 trips into the territory long before I started talking to liquid state or that opportunity kind of arose. So it was through building, you know, very early on creating our social media presence in in
China
.Share
23:36
But very early on getting people on ground also realizing, you know, you can talk about asian, some people almost talk about
ASia
as one territory or country, you know, between Thailand Indonesia and Vietnam you have, you know, almost half a billion people.Share
23:53
There's so many cultural differences within the Southeast Asian region that you need to think about it, approach it treated and and focus on it in different ways. So we really learned a lot. It really gave us a good runway and a very solid fundament I think, you know, proud.
Share
24:11
And and almost every time I say it a bit shocked to say, I think Alan is probably top 34 international artists, you know, in
China
along there with Ariana Grande and Justin Bieber based on the numbers. And what we're doing in hard ticket sales is we just did 30,000 tickets in India
mind boggling numbers.Share
24:30
That is pretty hard for a lot of DJs and and you know, equivalent artists or comparable artists to achieve at age 24. But but it's really been that that was ASia and and you know, having then had some success. I also traveled to Shenzhen met the
Tencent
people at a very early stage.Share
24:46
We had built good relationships and through that I got the opportunity to and was, you know, invited, we had Alan taking part in the launch of liquid state, liquid statement being a JV 50 50 JV between
Tencent
and Sony
and kind of wanted to make a platform and a runway for electronic Artist and electronic music creators in ASia
to, to, to kind of bridge to the rest of the world, but also for international acts to bridge into the asian market and maybe China
.Share
25:16
So it was kind of a fit in the sense for me that you know that it was very much overlapping with a lot of the stuff and experience that I had you know been able to retrieve and build over the past couple of years. So when when an young and and and the
Sony
leadership then approached me and said, you know, just after the launch of liquid state said, you know, we need and an M.Share
25:40
D. And we think you should then could be the perfect fit. It was really a no brainer to me. It was difficult to kind of juggle for 2 to 2 years plus I did commuted two weeks
Hong Kong
also Hong Kong
Oslo. I have three kids and soon four and you know also having to manage and run Alan and my you know our and my business is out of Norway
with our publishing label, our studios are management and so on.Share
26:08
It was it was 22 years plus that I I probably haven't ran as fast as you know in my life and probably never will again. But yeah, it was also extremely educative. I think it helped me and Alan to really connect the dots in many of the things that we have done.
Share
26:27
And when then
Covid
hit in 2020. It just became impossible, clearly to go on with the business and spread outside, you know, in different parts of the world and my family situation and the mere fact that we couldn't go into the market for almost 1.5 years. So that was when I had to say thank you, it's been a great ride. And we had, you know, I'm never, ever gonna forget one of the probably biggest experiences I've had.Share
26:51
And now you wrote an article on it back back then as well. We first signing I did was core sack brought to me by Robin, my, my head of A and R. The brilliant guy from Holland went to
China
when he was 21 we broke him on his first single reverse. And I think it's still top 50 almost in China
and he's done numbers that you won't even believe when looking at it from a european or Western context.Share
27:15
So being able to not only to build and, and work for Allen and with other international DJs or producers in the market, but also actually being able to, you know, find this classically trained piano guy that turned DJ in a flat in a high rise in shanghai, go to a club here is demo and then five months later, take a billion billion stream plaque and be top five.
Share
27:41
It's just, yeah, I'm, I'm humbled and forever grateful for that opportunity. But, but it also, you know, when we kind of came back and and
Covid
hit, it was also a good opportunity to really process and really, you know, figure out what's the key, what's the key takeaways from this experience? What's what's the most important education we've gotten through this, you know, fantastic experience.Share
Tim Ingham
28:09
When Gunnar says he's talking to me from here, he's referring to the United States, I believe. And one of the very interesting things about Allen's career is, as you said, you didn't get on that plane to L. A. You broke in europe, then you broke in
ASia
and only really now are you putting the focus on the U. S. So if we can just stick with China
for a second.Share
28:29
I think you said before that Alan's done over five billion streams there, correct me if I'm wrong in a second.
Share
28:33
What's the one thing above all else that was the key factor in breaking Allen so big in a market that frankly puzzles lots of executives working in the in the, what we might call the Western music industry, puzzles them how to unlock
China
in that way. What was the, what was the one biggest factor of all that that broke out and so big?Share
Gunnar Greve
28:54
I think you're probably asking a very good question, but also the question that all of these guys or girls and women have asked themselves how and and how and and what is the components, what's the factors, I think let's start with the first, the product, right, We're all talking about, let's make sure you have have a product that fits and works with that market.
Share
29:14
You know, if your Faruq, oh, you know that, you know the latin region, you have a market that will work, we figured out very early on.
Share
29:22
And if you look at it historically as well, there's something in the nordic Melody language, the melancholic Melody language that has really resonated well with asian, especially Chinese audience for decades, whether that's, you know, that's erased me up from the Norwegian songwriter wall floor along with Josh Groban, like those sort of epic big or melancholic and, and some birds get a bit sad, even melodies.
Share
29:51
That's my opinion. There's no kind of, you know, reel proof to put behind it or or or some numbers to to show for. But my gut, my instinct and experience says and tells me that the melodies and the Melody lang Allen was what really captured the Chinese audience at an early stage.
Share
30:09
So say product first, but then it's, you know, I think actually the question if you know, you have a product that works, I'm happy to say that I think the answer to to, to building and breaking that market is very simple.
Share
30:22
It's time and its presence and that's the good old thing because we talked about that in the nineties and early two thousands, you need to spend time in the market and you need to spend real time on ground meeting people building relationships and building an audience and I think that's something that people kind of Yeah we all figured out them right and we can sit behind our computers, you're you're sitting in the U.
Share
30:42
K. Now, I'm assuming I'm here in Orlando, I don't really have to go anywhere, you know, I'm not gonna I'm gonna quote Alan, Alan don't kill me for this. But every first time I called Alan and he knew me from
Norway
, so he was like where did you get my number from?Share
30:54
I don't need a manager, I have a laptop and then he hung up and and that's kind of reflective in the sense that I think a lot of people has kind of kind of underestimated and undervalued the importance in this modern day where everyone can work remote and kind of be connected and connectivity is only based on online interactions and and exchanges.
Share
31:17
I think it's even more valuable and more important to spend physical time in the market and on the ground. So again, long answer to a short and good question. But I think the real answer is really that simple, have a good product and spend proper time on ground.
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Tim Ingham
31:34
This kind of brings us up to the point I've been promising, I would I would delve into with you which is web three. I mean I only have to look at Music Business Worldwide coverage to know, you know we can work out daily now we're writing about N. F. T. S. The metaverse etcetera.
Share
31:50
N. F. t. s.
Share
31:51
Are an interesting topics. I'd like to get your view on this. There are some people who remain extremely skeptical and say why is essentially a screenshot being sold for $2 million dollars or whatever it is. Some people worry that there's that we're gonna be led into a fraudulent territory and that scams will take place and that sadly consumers will get scammed.
Share
32:10
What's your thoughts on N. F. T. S. Generally? Where do where do you sit, do you think this is a bit of a fad or the sort of a signal of a bright future? All right.
Share
Gunnar Greve
32:21
But this is a this is a difficult one for me to answer in a simple and concise and short way because and it's gonna be gonna be a bit big in how I approach it or with a with a holistic view or so to speak to me this is about human value, perspectives human how humanity what we value as as as worth in in in objects and things around us.
Share
32:44
We've had a world, we've lived in a world where physical objects where you know back thousands of year, gold medals, like physical objects have been the core value of what we are, perspective and view of values have been in physical objects. That's how humanity is built, That's been thousands of thousands and thousands a year to me web three,
Blockchain
, the metaverse, Everything beyond really comes down.Share
33:07
I'm gonna tell it quick, very quick. I came into the kindergarten one day a few years quite a few years back to pick up my my my then young daughter at a couple of years age and she was sitting in the spring in
Norway
and also in the flies and the bugs were just getting flying around in the garden outside of the kindergarten.Share
33:25
And there were two flies on the window in the kindergarten. And and my daughter was sitting there trying to enlarge them to fly on the on the window because that's what she does on her was on her ipad. You know, three years old is trying to enlarge in that.
Share
33:38
And that just made me realize that one of those moments where, okay this is it like The fact is him and the biggest, the hole at the core of this comes down to the digital asset, the digital value is equivalent. Or now even surpassing the physical attributes for the young demographics of you know, 10-20 and 22 now 30 even.
Share
34:01
And that's that's the key thing you have to really just get it, get to understand at once because if you don't get that, then then there's no reason to go into N. F. T. S. Or Blockchain or web three. So that's number one. And then I think, you know, we've been sitting on the fence, we're not done.
Share
34:16
And you know, I don't think there's a lot of marketplaces and and players out there who haven't been, hasn't approached us in the last three years and or two years and you know, we've been offered so much money. It's almost in my opinion, a bit shameful because yes, it is a bit of, it's not it's, you know, there was a dot com bubble, but the internet internet state, right? So it kind of survived, I think N. F. T.
Share
34:39
S as we've seen it in these last two years is a wave and a bit of a bubble partially, and mainly because people really don't understand it just yet, how to use it and what to utilize it for for me and to us, the the big auctions and one on ones is really not that interesting at the end of the day is driven by 3 to 4000, you know, heavy whale crypto whale community online and the values of what's being paid and created are not consistently, you know, they're not they're not mirroring each other in the way they should and reflecting the way they should.
Share
35:14
So to us, we've just been sitting kind of not sitting duck because we're planning and we've been exploring and doing a lot of work to kind of see and you know, use other people's failures and successes to really see what and how N. F. T. S. Will become a key an imperative part of everything we do.
Share
35:34
And I think you have to go and look at a the gaming world again, I don't know if you feel it familiar with actual infinity or some of the NFC games out there who have now created an entire you know on chain tokenized around their games, you know with with aCSi infinity which is a very simple avatar game where you buy your avatar as an N.
Share
35:53
F. T. Create a wallet straight away and you do all your all your transactions and interactions in the game on the chain. In in the token that is within the game is 1.5 million users. M. A. U. S. Monthly active done $4 billion in transactions in what years?
Share
36:15
That just but they've got it, they understand what it is, it's not about creating a Fancy nice looking video and sell it for $2 million dollars online. It's about creating a utilities and assets that can live that can create value for the future for whoever holds them.
Share
36:30
In this case, you know the music listeners are fans of the Artist but it's it's you know everyone who approaches this as a money grab is gonna is gonna fall and fall and hit themselves on the head or somewhere where it's not pleasant because that's really not what this is about.
Share
36:47
So I don't know if that was a good answer because I didn't kind of give you the formula of what we are doing because I want to keep that at least for a couple of more minutes. But but I think N. F. T. S.
Share
36:58
Is gonna play a huge role, huge role for those who understand it. And I see some artists now that are really starting to get a hang of it and and yeah I can't wait to show and share the world what we have what we have in store on that on that side.
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Tim Ingham
37:17
Fantastic. Thank you. I'm still can't get the image of your daughter trying to enlarge a fly with their fingers as if an ipad was my two year old. Can I have an android phone? Lots of people in the US music industry look at me with bewilderment having an android phone but my two year olds figured out how to like take pictures without it being unlocked.
Share
37:36
He's figured out ways to get to different menus with it while the phone is pretty wild and he does it like a like a master cat burglar, you know what I mean? He's got these little finger moves, he does that I don't even know what he's up to. It's pretty pretty frightening but pretty impressive at the same time. The metaverse. It's a it's a word that keeps cropping up in headlines, it intrigues me.
Share
37:58
I don't think I'm alone in the fact that occasionally I feel an internal eye roll happening now when I hear the metaverse because I'm not entirely convinced going back to your previous point, everyone knows precisely what it is, all the power of it. I'll give you a great example because you see my favorite the world of video games, Gabe Newell who created
Steam
and Valve and did portal and the half Life games.Share
38:23
He basically said the metaverse has been existing since then. I'm going to mess up the quote. But you know, Final Fantasy Seven, Final Fantasy Eight, whichever one it was where there's essentially a world where we can congregate online and be ourselves through avatars. It's like this, this is nothing new.
Share
38:37
So how revolutionary is the metaverse in music. And then the second part of the, I guess the more exciting part when you have an Artist like Alan, is it a real prospect for him to be playing live shows, live performances in a virtual arena that excites people, Let's just be charitable and almost as much as the real thing is that a genuine prospect?
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Gunnar Greve
39:02
Yeah, this one is so big, we're gonna have to try and compartmentalized it a bit. So I think I think, you know, you got you refer to is right. I think the metaverse in essence have been around since Mark M. R. R. C. The chat service that you could do on web 2.1 point, Oh even I think this is about spending time with people online.
Share
39:24
It's it's about a community aspect is hugely important and then it's about experiencing thing in the same sense that you would meet someone somewhere to do something socially physically, you now do it online, it's as simple as that and you know, again we're at the very difficult stage now because what you what you get, yeah, you get the Facebooks and you get the amazons and you get the googles that want to create a close metaverse and you know, big big big platforms and players, we all know in my opinion, the biggest obstacle and and heard for many artists with the following today is the Big five platforms, because we don't access our own audience, they keep a lid on it and they give us a very, very small fraction of part of it, and even when we pay for it, we're not accessing our full audience.
Share
40:06
So in the same sense, what we're seeing now is the big platforms, fighting and putting so many, many million dollars behind, you know, a path that leads to closed metaverse is I do believe personally that will not prevail, I think what, you know, you talked about your two year old who is surpassing your skills digitally and on your phone, I think that's something all of us experience and I think one of the key things that, you know, music stakeholders and and shakers and movers need and entertainment shakers and movers need to keep in mind moving forward that they really haven't in the past is that the audience is smarter than you, the audience is way smarter than you and they can see right through what you're trying to do and if you don't have that as a starting point, you're just gonna end up losing.
Share
40:47
And I see the world being an open cross world, cross metaverse world, I see a world where your avatar or your digital companion, whoever, whatever and with whomever that looks like it can, can can seamlessly jump from from from meta verse two metaphors, you're in sandbox and then you jump over to the walk of verse and then you know you want to go, so I think the future will will not be for there will be close metaverse is probably big and successful ones as well, but this is really about again the centralization web three and Blockchain fueled with and by the metaverse is really about at the end of the day, like frank Lucas method cut cut out the middleman, it is about the creator to co creator and back, it's about not having all these platforms, having all these gatekeepers that kind of filters out why and how you're gonna be able to communicate with your audience and as you know yourself probably and I do when you can have an experience and feeling of actually having an influence on a product if you have, if I am in the world of Walker and I am with Alan creating the Walker verse, it becomes 100 times more powerful.
Share
42:03
And I think for all the technology we have right now at our feet and the opportunities they represent that is also a key takeaway from me in this whole, this whole topic of opportunities where it's bit vague, I've seen the eye rolling, trust me, I've seen the aisle rolling just yesterday, people, people are already tired about hearing of the metaverse and 90% of people don't really have a clue what This, like what it will really be and represent in their lives.
Share
42:30
And so I think, you know, a key takeaway is also to just understand and know that this, this future, we don't have a clear, we don't know exactly what's around the next quarter and we do know that it will change. We know that if we're not going to look at the last 10 years and see that, you know, there's gonna be the same if not more.
Share
42:52
Signage changes to what we do in the coming 10 years then we have have a serious problem, but I do think we should then really embrace our audiences and bring them in to co create the platforms, the outlets and even the content that we're whether it's, you know, at the end of the day, the artists create the music, but there are so many layers to it and around it.
Share
43:15
And again, if you go back to
ASia
and gaming to me Spotify is probably you know, very early on what Spotify, I'm a huge fan of the platform and for me it's really good that we have one of the biggest players in the world and the biggest DSPs that is for music, not you know, going down on amazon or Apple or but at the end of the day, you know, Apple want to sell you a phone and the music comes along, amazon want to sell you subprime and then prime prime subscription and then add the music on.Share
43:43
So in that sense, Spotify to me represents a lot more, but I would say that you know what they do Miss or we most of us are kind of not capturing is all the opportunities, the multilayered opportunities of having our fans interact and engage with the Artist.
Share
44:04
It's way too linear. The way we built the DSPs, you know, looking at at Chinese
Tencent's
different platforms, looking at how the gaming platform, Open World Games, look at roadblocks, look at what, how that open world, the metaverse in a sense have created.Share
44:20
There are so many layers to what you can offer, how you can interact and how you can appeal to your audience beyond that piece of music. And I think that is what that's the reel excitement of the metaverse. It's not about whether that concert is going to Be as cool as seeing Alan perform at Coachella because it's not, it's going to be a completely different thing.
Share
44:40
But then again, tim if you think about it at the end of the day, 90% of all people in the entire world that wants to go and see an
Allen Walker
concert will never have the opportunity.Share
44:52
So you have to take in that's that's numbers, that's facts, whether it's because of age, whether it's because of Geographics and whether placed or whether it's a matter of financial ability to purchase tickets or a combination of the three.
Share
45:05
That's a matter of a fact that I think you can almost apply to any Artist out there and if you take in those numbers and you think what I have to create here in the metaverse is multilayered add ons to what I already have created. It's not something that's gonna substitute it or replace it, it's something that's going to give it a different way of life and a new dimension of life online.
Share
45:28
And if I do it in the right way, it will actually enable me to bring so many more of my fans into the fold because you know the feeling that those three lines in the front row and those eyes and what they experience that show, that's like there's no price on that, will you go home with from that concert, that feeling will keep you're a fan if you love the show and they will keep you know, that will keep you going as a fan for a long time, I do believe you can create that front row feeling for millions out there to be equally strong, but it has to be done probably in a more sophisticated and, and different way than what most people have done up until now.
Share
46:06
But yeah, that's also the front part about this, right, we have to kind of the road is kind of being made as we walk or run or crawl your insight, but mainly your enthusiasm about this is infectious.
Share
Tim Ingham
46:21
Thank you. Now, I've got a difficult question for you. I'm just trying to think how I phrase it elegantly.
Share
46:28
You've mentioned that Alan has had this and yourself had this long and fruitful partnership with
Sony
going back a long time and before we we recorded this podcast, you were talking about Breaking Allen so big in europe and then breaking them so big in ASia
and now you're looking to break him even bigger in North America in the United States particularly. And I'm sure Sony
plays a huge role in those ambitions.Share
46:50
But if I was a major record company executive hearing you talk about all the exciting direct fan relationship, you know, blowing up the throttling of fan access that that we see on major social media platforms, etcetera, I'd probably be slightly worried about what the next 10 years might hold, what's your view on that and I guess if you've got any reassuring message or guidance for the major record companies of what they need to become too to participate and be part of this revolution.
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Gunnar Greve
47:22
So listen, if we're gonna rewind 10 years again, tim like how many you heard so many people tell you the majors are dead 10 years ago when the digital revolution really happened.
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Tim Ingham
47:32
True, right?
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Gunnar Greve
47:33
And they're done is over. All the majors can pack up and leave fire old people is over now. It's the fans democracy and then, oh sh it, then you have curation.
Share
47:42
And if there's 60,000 songs per day on the platform, well, so listen, I do think, first of all, the major labels are not gonna die and they're not gonna go away and they represent a huge, huge, huge value in the entire music industry seeing beyond and beside the fact that they're sitting on, you know, 90% of the catalog out there.
Share
48:02
That is really, that is really moving the needle in terms of streams and consumption across all demos and across the entire geographic the entire globe. But I do think, you know, it's gonna come down to which of the majors or minor major because I do believe in the future. You have big independence as well. Probably maybe working with majors on some level.
Share
48:23
But I think, you know, those who can can look at what they have, which the majors have built over decades, you know, soon into 100 years of, of experience and understanding of talent development of marketing and of storytelling in the sense of essence of marketing and communication because, you know, there's also a lot of classes being skipped by young creators and young artists today.
Share
48:46
There are there are, you know, a lot of values and a lot of components that that a bigger label and bigger label with a long experience represents that can be crucial to any Artist today.
Share
48:58
I don't believe that much in the hole yet, but when you that you need the firepower in the same sense that you did before. I think it's it's, you know, but I do feel that the presence on ground is also going to be as long as you have people fighting for you that love your product and backs your Artist than having, you know, a partner that has 6000 employees around the world.
Share
49:20
And it is on ground in multiple territories. It's a huge advantage and it's a huge asset. But of course on the other side of it, that label is putting out 200 singles every Friday and they have five people in each territory to handle those.
Share
49:35
It's also going to be difficult to get the value of it from what you give away. So I don't have the answer. I'm I'm sure that none of the none of the, you know, top level executives have the clear answer, they probably have a better view of that I do, but but I do think that they can all, and we'll all play a huge important part.
Share
49:53
I think it's about looking at, it's about embracing the opportunities in the future. And it's about looking at, what are we really good at? Where are we really adding value?
Share
50:01
And I think that is really reflective of everyone in the value chain of music and entertainment as a whole right now, because you need to look at what you put in and what you and the rest of of the, of the constituents in that in that group get out of it because that's really what it's gonna come down to.
Share
50:18
And I don't think we're gonna, you know, we're not gonna see the major labels die anytime soon. Rather on the contrary, I'm seeing some very healthy signs within, you know, more than one of the majors where you see that they understand and see where and how this can be done.
Share
50:37
And that they really looking at with skeptical and critical eyes inwards saying, where do we add the value, what can we do?
Share
50:44
It's also about, you know, when I came into the industry, dropped out of high school 20 years ago, there were like a 90 10 and the labels owned all the monsters, like we've completely shifted the business model, not a lot of artists go on most master deals and sign away the rights today, some do.
Share
51:01
And, and quite frankly, I've been surprised about increasingly how many have done it over the past couple of years, but just think about the fact that the entire template and presidents of how we do deals and, and and the the business, the industry format of how we do deals have completely shifted, but so it's, it's difficult to say that we now have a clear answer and view of what the future will look like.
Share
51:24
But I wouldn't be that stressed if I were sitting, you know, in a, in a major label executive chair, I would about my future. I would rather be very attentive to grabbing the opportunities and embracing them with a very clear, you know, look in the mirror, where do we add the value?
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Tim Ingham
51:40
I've got a final question for you, We ask it for pretty much most interviewees and I'm braced for what your answer is gonna be, the question is this, if I could give you a Magic Wand right now and you could tap it on your table and change one thing about today's business, music business right now today, in the next few seconds, what would you change and why?
Share
52:08
Can I take away the algorithm, You can do whatever you want. It's your magic want.
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Gunnar Greve
52:14
You know, my, my biggest challenge. I talked about it a bit earlier time. It's, it's, it's really, really struggling to build, you know, you're building a following and then converting it and you know, following isn't worth anything.
Share
52:27
A fan is worth everything and converting a follower into fan is the most time consuming and it's so hard, it's so has to be genuinely done in the right way on every step of the journey, but when you do that, you actually created an amasses enormous following and fan base eventually, you're not accessing it, you're not accessing it, because, you know, when you go on
Facebook
, you're, you know, 4% organic reach.Share
52:52
When you go, even on the DSPs, you're not we, 33 million followers,
Alan Walker
has on Spotify, so, of course, no way I can reach them without Spotify, allow allowing us to, so that's I would kind of take away, take away the gatekeepers and the building blocks that is standing, because that's Alan, and and for us, we can sit there, oh, we're not reaching our audience, it's so frustrating because we have, we think at least we have everything I want them, they need, and they have chosen to follow us and and be Allen's fans and be in our world, but they have an Allen is kind of then not, you know, they're not being able to to to even interact with him on on a deeper level, just by not being exposed to his content in his music, and that's that's to me the biggest, the biggest kind of frustration today, but then that's us, we have, you know, Alan has a huge audience and he's making good money and has a good business, I would say it's even harder think about the merging Artist, he's fought his way in for their way or her way and built an audience of 10,000 people and really struggle to do so and you're not you know even more so harder for them to just be able to access to 3000 even when they put money behind that.Share
54:04
So yeah the Magic Wand would would probably take away the gatekeepers. Next one would probably be the algorithm. But let's say that for next.
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Tim Ingham
54:13
Well in a in a lot of ways that was kind of the perfect answer because much of the Web three excitement that we've batted back and forth here is about blowing up the throttling, blowing up the gatekeepers, allowing a frictionless relationship between Artist and fan and allowing frictionless reach for that Artist to all of their fans. So yeah, I think I think your your Magic Wand wish May be May be coming sooner than we expect.
Share
54:40
I agree. It's been a it's been a huge pleasure talking to you. As as I mentioned, I hold a modicum of cynicism skepticism about about all things Web three just because I've been overly saturated by metaverse N. F. T. S Blockchain but you've instilled in me a little more enthusiasm and excitement than I had at the start of the conversation. So thank you for joining us and thank you for doing that.
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Gunnar Greve
55:02
Thank you for having me.
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