Tuesday, Oct 18, 2022 • 1h, 6min
Building Your Streaming Audience with Kevin Breuner (CD Baby)
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Kevin Breuner, Senior VP of Engagement and Education at CD Baby is our guest on this episode. Previously VP of Marketing at CD Baby, Kevin’s new role reinforces what CD Baby is all about: making sure musicians are as prepared as possible when planning to release their music into the world. At the end of August, CD Baby hosted their DIY Musician Conference in Austin, Texas. Kevin created the DIY Musician brand, which has become the cornerstone of CD Baby’s strategy.
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Kevin Breuner
Mark Brown
Transcript
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Mark Brown
00:10
Hi and welcome to Byta's monthly podcast series. How we listen live in conversation.
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00:15
My name is Mark Brown and I'm the founder of Byta.com, the platform enabling sending and receiving of digital audio in a clean, simple and secure way built for everyone working with music today.
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00:27
Byta's goal is to provide artists in their teams with the tools and the knowledge to help move their careers forward. We believe anyone interested in working in and around the music ecosystem should have access to as many insights into the business of music as possible. The best approach is to try and do as much as you can on your own before you hire anyone or start building your team. How we listen live in conversation is presented in two parts.
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00:50
I present the first part and offer up some of my own experiences in the music industry. Then the second part is an in depth conversation with someone deep within the music ecosystem. We talked about how they got to where they are and the insights they picked up along the way.
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01:04
Our guest today is Kevin Bruner senior VP of engagement and education at
CD Baby
. Kevin's job at CD Baby is all about making sure musicians are as prepared as possible when planning to release their music into the world. We talked about how Kevin went from being a Grammy nominated musician to working with CD Baby along the way. He offers up all kinds of great advice on being ready when you're about to release your next album or single, Kevin spoke to us from Atlanta Georgia. Here's our conversation Kevin.Share
01:45
Are you somewhere, is that a hotel lounge?
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Kevin Breuner
01:50
It is it's on one of the like its top floors or something. I don't know. I just found a quiet spot somewhere.
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Mark Brown
01:57
Okay so show them a little behind the scenes, tilt, tilt your, tilt your computer over and what's that?
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Kevin Breuner
02:04
That's the elevators alright. And right behind me it drops straight down 26 floors.
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Mark Brown
02:09
So no expense spared, no expense. Tell us where you are.
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Kevin Breuner
02:15
I'm in
Atlanta Atlanta
Georgia. I'm speaking music biz that organization. They have an event here tonight that we are sponsoring and I'm speaking on a panel and given a quick little presentation about CD Baby.Share
Mark Brown
02:28
So I think you're the first person we've had, this is about event number 1516. You're the first person we've had who's a musician but also works in sort of the business part of it. So I want to spend a bit of more time than we normally would talk about that kind of stuff. But so tell us where you normally live and what you do. Exactly.
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Kevin Breuner
02:57
First I am the S. V. P. Of artist engagement and education for
CD Baby
, where music distribution company based out of Portland
Oregon, that's where I live.Share
03:11
And really my role there at one point I was running the whole marketing team and it got so big we split it off into two branches. So my team really does all the content marketing. So we do the podcast, musician podcast, the blog.
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03:26
We do our conferences and events and you know, anything related to content outreach. And we just started an influencer program that that my team is is building. So all that kind of stuff falls under my role of CD Baby.
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03:46
I used to manage the entirety of the marketing department which also included like all our campaigns and advertising and all that. So pretty much anything related to promotion I've touched at some points, both for work and for my band endeavors as well.
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Mark Brown
04:03
Okay, so so explain this band stuff because I think your band didn't start in
Portland
, is that correct? You start, where were you living in Nashville
?Share
Kevin Breuner
04:11
Is that I was living in
Nashville
. The band is actually based here in Atlanta
. So I come to Atlanta
confused. I come to Atlanta
all the time. Yeah, I I went to college to Belmont University in Nashville Tennessee
to study music and music business. I'm a guitar player. And while I was there my roommate was friends with these guys here in Atlanta
that we're looking for a guitar player. And I started playing with them.Share
04:35
When I walked into our first rehearsal they were actually sending out three song demo tapes to all the labels because this was the mid nineties. It was a different different world back then.
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04:45
And so I started playing, they already had a bunch of shows book, I started playing with them. And by the end of that summer we were signed to a label under the E. M. My umbrella. And and away we went with, you know, our music career and we're still making music, you know, we we had four albums on the label.
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05:06
And then the band took a hiatus and but then we started making records and releasing songs independently since, you know, I've worked at CD Baby. And so yeah, we've been doing music together for almost 25 years, wow, what style of music is it?
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05:25
Well, as far as like how we sound we get compared to, I would compare it to like bands like Death Cab for Cutie now. But back in the day we always got compared to the gin blossoms counting crows, R. E. M. We, our producer who produced our first two albums, also did the Gin Blossom Records.
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05:46
Okay, so great, it was a great experience working with him. We recorded in
Memphis
Tennessee
at Ardent Studios
, a very storied studio.Share
05:57
But yeah, when when the band went on hiatus site, I thought, okay, I'm probably done with music, I was doing a lot of photography, but then I just started writing and recording like crazy and I was in the
Northwest
, I've moved up to the Northwest
and at that time started a band, we made Cds and came across CD Baby as a way to distribute it and started using CD Baby for my own music.Share
06:18
And then in 2006, got a job there and I've been working there for almost 17 years now. So I've seen a lot, and as far as how the industry on the independent side has grown and exploded and changed and shift over time, and a lot of, you know what we do for artists is still in essence the same and we help them monetize their music fully.
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06:41
But how that's done now is completely different than from when I first started there in 2006, one of the most interesting things you were telling me, your band was also from a Christian back. Yes.
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Mark Brown
06:53
Which right, And and but but I but I think this is super interesting, especially considering how many international people we have on this call. That, Especially back in the 90s, this was a huge market, was it not this, that if people, if I understand it correctly, there were loads of different genres of bands that all fell under the umbrella of that. It would say Christian religious music. Is that how you would describe it?
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Kevin Breuner
07:24
Yes. Yes. It was actually a very exciting time. I mean, if if you grew up in the church were listening to that kind of music, you know, it was just exploding with so many new bands and so many genres that previously didn't exist in that under that umbrella.
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07:41
And so it was a very exciting time. And a lot of those bands were making inroads on the mainstream groups like jars of Clay Dc Talk, We're getting played on, you know, VH one and MTV and it was just exploding.
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07:55
And you know, we were having a lot of success as well. We sold a lot of records, We were nominated for a Grammy nominated for Multiple Dove Awards, which is like the Christian markets version of the Grammys.
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08:05
And what happened is that the it got really wide and then the whole genre of worship music came out and the whole industry, that segment of the industry just focused in on that. And that's not what we were and, that happened and was really happening when the band was on hiatus.
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08:27
And so over time as we started releasing music independently for us, the interesting thing is just like trying to figure out who our audience is now and and where they are and and because we're not that we're not that, that worship and that, that a lot of people in that in our previous, you know, that, you know, all our past connections and people, we know that's what that industry wants now, and that's not what we do.
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08:51
And so for us, it's just been an interesting thing as we release music independently trying to find who our audience is now. We have our classic fans that know us from our first two records are the ones that had a lot of success.
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09:03
So we always have fans that want to want to hear us play those songs, We love those songs, but as artists, we've grown and as songwriters, we've grown and changed and have lots of new music since then, but you might want to check it out.
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09:16
But then, so those fans just kind of stay, tend to stay in that era, but trying to, like, where is that audience now that it likes, what we do, It's, you know, and yeah, so I'm in the trenches just with every other artist, like the other artists coming to CD Baby.
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09:33
You know, I'm out there trying things, I'm out there using tools to build audiences, running ad campaigns, doing it all just for my own music.
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09:40
And, you know, obviously we see other artists having success in various ways and through the content we produce at CD Baby, we're always trying to like, interview those people, highlight those success stories, highlight the things that artists are doing that are working, and strategies that are working as everything shifts, because everything's shifting quickly, especially in the last 34 years. A lot has changed.
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Mark Brown
10:05
And so yeah, well, cause I think, like that was the key thing that I felt you said was this idea that, you know, you couldn't be in a better position being in that market back in the nineties and then to feel like suddenly we don't know who our fans are is completely relevant to what we're discussing today.
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10:27
This idea that, okay, who are we as a band and how do we reach the people we want to reach? And I think like, that's really what I wanna start focusing in on. So when you started at CD Baby, what, what year was that again?
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Kevin Breuner
10:45
2006.
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Mark Brown
10:46
Okay. So what were you and do I remember correctly, were you just sitting there fielding calls from artists all the time? So all day long and what and what, what was that? Like, hey, how do I put a record out or?
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Kevin Breuner
11:01
Oh, it was everything, you know, in 2006, the common question I get is how do I get signed to a label? How do I get a label to notice me? How do I, you know, or how do I get gigs? And a lot of it, You know, we have been distributing digitally to Itunes since 2004, but that concept was still brand new.
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11:19
Itunes was still still growing, like it wasn't you know, a lot of people think of Itunes and think about the Mp three era and like they were so dominant, but back then they were still just building and educating the consumer market about how Mp three s work and Mp three players were all over the map, as far as usability and all that kind of stuff.
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11:41
So we would be talking about, oh yes, you can get your music on Itunes. All you gotta do is, you know, sign up and upload it and we'll we'll send it out there.
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11:50
And so just in general, most I would have described as the independent market was so new still, and the idea of going directly to your fans was still so new that a lot of those calls were just helping people understand the opportunity and that it was accessible to them. They didn't need a label.
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12:09
And and then on the other hand, you know, so many new online platforms were emerging. I remember One of the things that led me to start the D. I. Y.
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12:21
Musician podcast which we've been doing since 2007, was I take a phone call, you know, have that conversation with an artist like I need to be on a label, like walking through, walk them through everything about how they could build an audience directly themselves. And that was more important first, because the label is gonna expect to have done that at this point.
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12:41
The days of them picking diamonds out of the rough out of the club randomly on a Friday night is not the world we live in anymore.
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12:48
And so I hang up with that artist and I pick up the phone and talk to somebody and they're like, yeah, I'm using this new platform called YouTube and I've been making videos and I've been making all these fans don't even have to tour place shows anymore. It's changing how I think about everything.
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13:02
I'm like, tell me everything, you know, I want to know exactly what you're doing and I'd be sitting there taking notes and then, and I was a podcast junkie at the time.
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13:10
And so I'm like, I need to make a podcast or I was like, I need to make these, I wish I could record these phone calls and make them available to everybody because all this information is so good. And so that's what led me to start the podcast and our blog and everything just like those conversations I was having with artists for eight solid hours every day.
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Mark Brown
13:29
Like, and I was thinking like when you mentioned Itunes, I'm like, well maybe we should explain what Itunes is considering it's so long ago that people forget, you know, so like, but you know, that's a bit ridiculous. It's a bit of a joke. But but like, so, so let's, if we're talking 2006, you know, we're whatever.
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13:49
How many years ahead in the future? Like, what do you think is different now than before? And then what's the same? Like I find that the landscapes changed a lot. But the basic principles are the same. And I think we should separate those before. We talk about release planning and developing an audience and stuff.
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Kevin Breuner
14:08
Absoluteed because there's things that you know, we did in the 90s that drove a lot of success. There are still completely relevant to today that you know there's certain principles and marketing techniques and tactics that that are relevant no matter what time period or what platforms and how people are working.
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14:27
You know, change. But I mean the big thing that has really changed is when we hit streaming there there was a fundamental shift in how consumers engaged with music.
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14:41
Everything up into that point for the history of the music business required somebody go to a store, know what they wanted and buy it, whether it's a download store or store, buying physical product and it was a purchase decision and music was all categorized by genre and you had to know the artist or you could browse some, but and especially with physical media if you weren't selling, you weren't gonna be on the shelf.
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15:06
So music also had a shelf life.
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15:09
When downloads came that that that that idea started falling by the wayside. But streaming changed how consumers interact with music and that a lot of times now they're searching by mood by what activity they want to do things are categorized differently. And the way people interact with music has drastically changed.
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15:31
So like for example, I have two daughters, they listen to a lot of music once, almost 16 pray for me.
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15:39
And the other one is the other one is 12.5 and they listen to a lot of music? They have no, that I I told him the other day that Friday was the day music was released, they had no idea because that's not how they even think about it.
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15:54
Where when I was growing up listening to music, it's like what's coming out on, you know, this week or what's what's new in the stores and for them, music has released, states are irrelevant to because they're listening on playlists that most of the music they listen to is because they heard it in a movie, they don't listen to radio.
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16:12
They, they, the way that music is shared is completely different. And so as an artist, I look at that and go, yeah, you, if you don't understand how the shift has happened with consumers, it's, you're gonna have a hard time regardless. But you know, a lot of people, they put on a playlist based on what they're doing, they're exercising.
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16:31
So they go get a like hype up type playlist that's, you know, pump me up and, or they're studying so they get a chill playlist or they're, you know, they're, and, and so it's just the way people think about and look for music is just drastically changed.
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Mark Brown
16:48
That is even though I knew all that the fact that you're saying it makes me think, I don't think about it enough. So is that an issue? Do you find like you talk to a lot of artists that don't really take that into account because you know, people like yourself who's a, you're an artist yourself, you you work in an organization that's focused on release states, that's focused on all those kind of things.
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17:12
Do you, do you think it's common for people to forget how people actually find and listen to new music? Do you think people put themselves in that position enough?
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Kevin Breuner
17:25
Well, I I talked to artists all the time that that that really wish the old ways were still in play. And I'm not talking about, you know, the streaming payouts and all that kind of stuff. I'm talking about.
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17:38
They they still think of it as it's a purchase decision by consumers. And so they're trying, they're focused so much on trying to get people to buy their music, which I'm gonna make some general statements that when, when you have die hard fans and they're close to the fans gets you like your their number one artist. Yes, you are trying to sell them stuff.
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17:60
But but but the reality is the streaming world because people don't have to buy what we saw as an expansion and explosion of the independent sector sector because people were able to just go listen to something new that it wasn't a purchase decision that you were going to pay a penalty of a dollar per track or $10 per album if you didn't like it.
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18:21
So people have the ability to experiment and try new things far and they have the average person is probably not like listening to a ton of different genres but they're they're probably experimenting more than they would have otherwise. And so I'm always telling artists because they still try to pitch their music when it's released as by my music, by my music, by my music.
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18:46
And really all you're trying to do is get people to push the play button. That's not that hard. It's it's low friction is not that hard.
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Mark Brown
18:54
It's like going for a second. It's harder.
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Kevin Breuner
19:03
It's easier than telling them to give you a dollar for something that they don't know what they want, they've never heard of before or $10 or 15 bucks. So all you're doing is asking them to push the play button.
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19:14
So in that space as artists it should be much easier to get creative in creating release strategies and ideas and things to engage your fans that make it fun and interesting to go push that play button where most of the time everybody is just yelling, go behind my seat.
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19:31
It's like they're shouting like sales people instead of doing something interesting and engaging that draws people in like oh I gotta check this out and and getting them to take action. I've got an example for you that I did, we, one of the things I was trying to do, I was trying to put together a campaign, to get fans.
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19:55
We have so many because of the age of our band. So many of our fans are on
Facebook
and it drives me nuts cause I'm like, I don't, I'm trying to get you off Facebook
, but they're all there.Share
20:05
And so, I put, we have a marketing platform that's free for anyone who signs up at
CD Baby
and creates an account, the marketing platforms called Show Dot Co and we have these, what it is, is a lot of like marketing pages that are like single conversion point marketing pages.Share
20:22
So someone lands there and they're being asked to do one action. There's no distractions by every other thing. So it's a, it's a nice way to follow your fans and, and you can use marketing pixels to follow up and all that. But, I was just trying to get those fans to give me their email address or follow us on Spotify.
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20:40
And so, the campaign I came up with is, in our career, at one point, we were playing At a concert, there was probably about 4000 people watching us and we started and we did this medley of cover songs, from the 70s, and it was always a highlight of the show.
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21:04
And in the middle of that, all the sound went off, everything went off our road manager came on stage and we got asked to leave because we were playing at a church and they had a no cover song policy and they neglected to tell us anyway. Anyway, so I thought that's an amazing story. Let's turn that into a campaign.
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21:26
So I had an audio recording of a time when we had recorded that, not the time we got kicked off the stage, because we didn't finish it. And I turned the campaign into hear the song that got us kicked off the stage. And so what I was trying to do is create this intrigue with people. Like what did these Christian boys do that. So terrible that they got thrown off the stage, I have to find out.
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21:47
And so that campaign performed so well.
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21:51
We got so many email addresses, so many Spotify follows just because people see it, and it's like, now they're intrigued now they want to push that button, and that's what I mean by getting creative and just finding a way to get people to push that button because oftentimes we're just trying to we're just shouting at them like we just want, you know, do this because I say so, and like, there's nothing in it for them, and that's what I think a lot of times an artist marketing when they're releasing music, they don't think about the end user and how you're providing value for them.
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22:21
You're only thinking about the end result you want for yourself. Oftentimes, and I'm guilty of it as anybody when, because we've as artists, I think the challenge we face is, especially if you've done an album, you've been through a long creative process that can be very draining and tiresome.
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22:36
That always costs more than you expected, always last longer than you expected and you just want to get it done and you're spent, you're emotionally drained and you just want it out there and it gets really easy to start just thinking about the end result you want and just shouting it out to the world as opposed to like taking a breath, putting on your promotion hat and getting then, you know, getting the creative creative juices flowing again to start thinking about, okay, well, how do I create some creative storylines and interest around this, that make it so much easier for people to want to push that play button.
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Mark Brown
23:11
So, the way I'm reading this is, I think it's super interesting, there's two things going on here, one that you're trying to create a level of curiosity, because I think, like, what I read from when you mentioned the tagline, like, you know, a lot of people do that with press releases where they put something that's sort of click bait and that really doesn't achieve the goal, it just people get disappointed.
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23:37
But if you create a level of curiosity about, oh, what do they mean about this? And then the second part I'm getting from this, is that Whatever it is you want them to do, it's you only you want to focus them on one action. Is that correct?
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23:49
That, like, that things are so chaotic these days that you can't ask them to do well. If you if you take these 15 steps, I'll give you this at the end and then people get lost along the way, is is that what you mean? That it's like May pique people's curiosity and then get them to do the one thing is that sort of, what would that be the two key points, basically?
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Kevin Breuner
24:12
Yeah. In fact, that's one of the things what that question you just asked is what I'll ask artists all the time. Like when they're talking about release planning, I'll say, what is it that you're wanting your fans to do or when they're running the campaign?
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24:24
What is exactly your fan you want your fans to do? Because I can't tell either you're not being very clear and direct, You're or you're not being interesting or or you're asking to do like 10 things or five things at once. And it's confusing.
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24:37
I mean, that's where, you know, in marketing, it's like you you want to keep it as simple and easy as possible. It's like, tell them what you want them to do in a creative way, but make it clear that I'm having you do this. So you'll click on this thing you know that and that's what that that landing page I made for that, that campaign, I talked about it.
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25:01
It's like hear the song that got us kicked off the stage and it's like follow us on Spotify to gain instant access. And so it's like they pushed the button to follow, they get instant access to to hear the thing that we were talking about.
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25:15
And I like how you phrased it as curiosity because there's a difference between
Peking
people's interest and curiosity then Clickbait Clickbait, it feels like you lied to me, you you you created some lame, sensational headline and then I clicked on it and that's not what was there or the payoff was not anything worth to the degree of what you made it sound like false advertising. Yeah, it pretty much, yeah, Yeah.Share
Mark Brown
25:44
But I think like what's what's the expression Kiss? Keep it simple. Stupid.
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25:53
We'll be right back after this break.
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Speaker 3
25:59
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26:10
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26:16
What does that mean exactly.
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26:18
Beta
reads and writes file, meta data, plus it converts audio file formats and delivers fast, secure and great sounding streaming, create, promote and discover with Beta
made for music.Share
Mark Brown
26:36
We've discussed how things have changed over time, like how the markets have changed and that there's a lot more competition and, and the way people see music.
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26:46
But what are the underlying fundamentals that you think are still the same? Like, just as important as they ever were?
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Kevin Breuner
26:55
Well, I think, you know, some of the things that, that, that drove our success, even when we were on a label, most of the success we were having in the market was because our manager was this amazing grassroots marketing guy who had us going out directly to our fans in every city. We were so tired every day just from morning till night.
Share
27:20
We were going, we'd be doing acoustic sets at college, student centers, we'd be doing in stores, you know, because music stores were everywhere. That's how people consume music back then. We'd be setting up it, doing little acoustic sets in there.
Share
27:32
We'd be on air radio stations, even radio stations that didn't play our music that that would be more than happy for us to stop by and play live on the air. And really what it was like the idea of like, it's easy to think like, oh, I can't market my music because I can't, you know, the newspapers never gonna cover me or this or that or, or the magazines or the websites, the cool music websites aren't gonna cover me.
Share
27:54
It's like, no, you can go directly to the people and the internet has only made that easier and easier and easier and you just need to learn how to tell a compelling story, how to be present yourself in a way that's interesting to people and have good music and just go meet the people right where they are.
Share
28:16
And with the internet, there's so many options to do that. But also we have the internet, but we still have the real world. And I always tell us, don't forget about the real world because that after the last couple of years, after the last couple years, I'm still trying to figure that out.
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Mark Brown
28:32
So, okay, so like we would keep it simple stupid. Go go to where the fans are, all the stuff we, we know what we're doing? So what does that mean? In practice? Let's talk about say, release planet because I'm assuming being organized is still something that has always been important.
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28:53
And if you've been at sea, maybe this whole time, you must be able to mention like the top things that people screw it? Let's just do that. Let's, let's do it. Let's do it that way. What are the things not, not the best practices? Just give me the, don't do these three things and you'll be ahead of the game. What would those top three things be? Is it possible to say?
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Kevin Breuner
29:17
Yes, yes, absolutely.
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29:19
Number one would be, do not absolutely do not set a release state until your music is done because what happened sounds so obvious, it sounds so obvious, but I'm assuming, I'm assuming it's a problem.
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Mark Brown
29:34
Is that what you're saying?
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Kevin Breuner
29:35
Well, here's what happened. I'm guilty of it as anybody.
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29:38
Here's, here's how it happened in the past. A lot was like, hey, we've got this really good show booked in four months. That would be an amazing release party, album release show, Let's make that our release date, but the music is not done and then it gets moved back.
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29:53
It takes longer and longer and longer and so many times I've seen artists were like, they're just scrambling to get it wrapped up. So the music's even live on the release date, much less take advantage of all the opportunities that exist in the release process. So it still happens in the digital world.
Share
30:08
Like in with my band, I had one of my bandmates is like, let's set a release date and so we can announce the release date. I'm like, our music is not done. We don't know, we're going to be able to release it then and we've done it where it's some of the times where we've had to interrupt your band must be so frustrated by, you know, this guy knows everything.
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Mark Brown
30:31
This guy knows everything.
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Kevin Breuner
30:32
Fortunately, fortunately it's usually paid off and they're like, okay, good, let's just do what he says, but this last album we did was delayed by like nine months and this one band member kept saying, let's set a release date, like no.
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30:47
And and all those arbitrary release dates were just to make and feel good about to be able to say something. I'm like, what I want to make sure is that when our music is done, then we can take advantage of all those opportunities that exist in the release process. So not setting an arbitrary release date.
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31:04
The other, the other thing is like, getting that kind of is like a I'll say it's number two, but it goes hand in hand with that. It's like not setting the release date, but the music is done. So now I want this out as soon as possible. I think artists, we get we get so excited, we hear the final mixes and masters and we're just like, this is amazing.
Share
31:21
And we just got to get out there as soon as possible. And so, you know, we'll get artists calling us up on Tuesday or Wednesday said, and you know, release dates, you can release whatever day you want, but the the universal release state is Fridays.
Share
31:36
And they'll be like, I want to get this out by this Friday and we're like, we can do that for you. But again, you're just losing all these opportunities, Why would you want to do that? Well, I want to get it out there as soon as possible, it's gonna be so amazing, Everyone's gonna love it. I'm like, well, they'll love it even more if they actually hear it.
Share
31:49
And if you do some of these things, you'll have an opportunity to promote it. And the other thing, I think that that's that's a big mistake that artists make is that they look at the release date as the end, like the finish line.
Share
32:06
And it's really the starting point, the way music is consumed and the opportunities exist before the music is available, are worthy of shooting for some of them. You might get some of you might not with like press and various coverage and and all that kind of stuff.
Share
32:25
But after it's out is when your fans can actually do something with it. And so really thinking that that's really the starting point is that three.
Share
Mark Brown
32:33
I didn't know what we we had to, that was that was two. And then I'll give you an extra one. I'll give you an extra.
Share
Kevin Breuner
32:40
The other big mistake is not not looking at the artist. We often, it's like, our latest release is Our new Baby. It's the ones. This really sounds like me, those other albums, but not building a catalog and really having a catalog mindset.
Share
32:56
I've talked to artists so many times, like that old music doesn't sound like me any more of those old albums, Can I take them down like, no, don't do that. Every artist or most artists, I should say that I see earning significant revenue at CD Baby and my significant, I mean six figures or more, I've watched them do that by building a catalog.
Share
33:15
And every time you release a new album or a new song, your fans are engaging with your music again. Well, they can only listen to one song so many times before they got to move on. But if you've got a catalog every time you release music, it becomes an event for them to go back and listen to all your old music as well.
Share
33:30
And that drives your growth of your catalog and revenue like crazy. And so really having this, I need to be building a catalog over time mentality. And that's why I think releasing albums still has immense value because, sure people might hand pick certain songs, they've done that through the history of the music business.
Share
33:50
But when you have more for them to listen to, if somebody likes that one song that's on a playlist and they want to go back and hear more, it's like now, instead of having one song or two others to listen to. If they've got 20 they're going to go check out a lot more music and hopefully love it too.
Share
34:07
And so as you build more and more music, you just have more inroads into your catalog that really drives, listenership and, and revenue.
Share
Mark Brown
34:16
Ultimately, that insight about building a catalog is excellent because I think you used to think of like when you go buy something, you go to the store and you look what they have and you just buy one and you don't realize that like, since it's all available, you're completely right that if an artist here's one song, they're gonna go look around and you know, they're gonna, they can dig deep without any cost to them.
Share
34:42
I think that's like, that's an exceptional piece of advice that I don't think about. And I never thought that back catalog would be the big success of streaming because it, it seems to me, I don't know what you think about it, but I keep hearing more and more how older songs are being resurfaced in the most random ways. And I it I was fascinated, fascinated.
Share
Kevin Breuner
35:06
Yeah, absolutely. And that's, that's kind of one of the points I was making when I mentioned my daughters. Is that all these songs that, you know, like classic rock songs, they have no idea when they released, it could have been released last week.
Share
Mark Brown
35:17
Yes.
Share
Kevin Breuner
35:18
So they, and music has gotten to a point where, it most music pretty much sounds timeless now. Once technology got to a certain point, Yes, you can tell like, certain trends and eras, but a lot of like what we marked eras in the past was like as technology advanced production techniques changed and got better.
Share
35:39
And, but we're to a point where, you can, you know, music, there's so much variety that it doesn't for people, younger listeners, especially, it's all new to them. It just sounds, it's just a bunch of music that they can like or not like.
Share
Mark Brown
35:56
Yeah, wow, that's yeah, no, that's like, I didn't even think of that. Like the idea that it's all new music to a certain, if you haven't heard before, it's new to you. It's fascinating. So I want to talk about a bit about release planning, but like we've got, I'm there, there's some questions.
Share
36:13
Here we go. I'm just gonna give you a couple and then if anybody has any questions, this is from, Somalia. I hope I said that right in in
Calgary
, my, my hometown.Share
36:24
My question is regarding sending the press release to media. How early should, oh, this, I can't believe this goes right into timelines. How early should I send it? What is the date press release are typically typically published before the release. So is that maybe like a day of the week or how long in advance?
Share
Kevin Breuner
36:43
One thing I'd like to point out, we have a free tool, anyone can use, even if you don't use CD Baby, the web address is released dot c d baby dot com. And it's our release plan generator. And it actually helps you understand these timelines because that answer is going to change depending on the type of press.
Share
37:01
So if you're looking for major media, which typically the average independent artist isn't looking for like nationwide or, you know, whatever whatever your country you're in, because we've got artists from all over, you know, you're gonna have media that's like national media, then you're gonna have more localized to your, your, your city.
Share
37:20
Oftentimes, and then in your city, depending on the size of your city, you might even have some subsections of that as well. So depending on the level you're trying to reach, it's gonna take time, but with, with press release, and you're gonna want to start that process at least two months in advance. And that process looks like, you know, getting a press release written.
Share
37:45
You know, if you're, if you're working with a pr person that's gonna be pitching it, you know, they need time to actually what they call pre pitching, where they send it out to writers and they try to sell them on actually doing something with it or to even look at it. You know, it takes them a while to even get them to get around to look at it and read it and they need to ignore it.
Share
Mark Brown
38:04
First they try to ignore it, forget about it, and then maybe think about reading it.
Share
Kevin Breuner
38:10
Yeah. Yeah. And so, so that's why you gotta, I think oftentimes artists, we forget that it's not just the day I send it like, oh, my release is a month away. It's like, no, you gotta allow time to actually get that person's attention to take a look at it.
Share
38:23
And then from there when they get their attention, they've got their own editorial calendars. And it May be like, I've had an instance before, I can't remember this was an older, older band I had or a friend of mine's band, but they have, the person said I'd love to cover this, but I, Beyonce is releasing something this week and I have to write about that.
Share
38:41
So you got to understand that there's other things that play and even if the person likes what you're doing, there May be some limitations based on their editorial calendar and what they're being asked to do.
Share
38:51
So when you're thinking about press release and that kind of press, whether it's your local paper or your local music website or a lot of cities have like a weekly entertainment focused newspaper, those, those people, you know, you want to give them a six weeks to two months is a good timeline.
Share
39:14
The bigger you get the further out you're gonna need, like chris at work who's on the podcast with me. He actually got he landed a huge feature in the L. A. Times as pr his publicist did it got it for him and you know, that's major media and it was a very nice, big review.
Share
39:35
It was like a show review and had his photo in there and I think they were working on that one for like three months.
Share
39:42
And so it, you just got to think about those timelines and also, I think like I said, what most artists forget is it's not the day you send the email, it's the day you actually get them to read the email and make a decision, that's the timeline or getting them to read it at all, is it?
Share
39:59
Yeah, but you can get creative with it too. I've seen a lot of artists do some creative things to just like get, get people's attention and some of them work and some of them don't.
Share
Mark Brown
40:09
But giving people time to read the email you write is the best thing you can do. Like I, I really back you up on that like that, just giving people getting in touch with people in the right timeline significantly increases your chances of accomplishing something. So if we think now look back to this sort of release planning, like how do you, in sort of broad strokes, like you're making an album?
Share
40:38
Are you, are you making an ep getting some tracks together? Should you start collating all the information at that point? How do you recommend that artists sort of manage their time that you need to start with?
Share
Kevin Breuner
40:50
Like, what are your goals for the release?
Share
40:52
Because I think that's one thing that's, that's very different these days, is that, we, I think there's something that I like to call it a season of release and what I, what I encourage artists to do and think about, hey, there's a season of time period where I'm going to have things dropping and, and the, the example I use often is like having a single or two and giving a month for each single leading up to the album and then the album drops.
Share
41:19
And then after that there's streaming has also provided the opportunity that releases don't have to be so precious and that, oh, I can do some live tracks off that album.
Share
41:28
I can do some remixes and and just keep giving people reasons to keep coming back to the music over a period of time where there's just this ongoing musical dialogue about whatever you know, wherever I'm at and you know, our musical career. So it's like the album is sort of the tent pole thing in that, that idea of a season of release, Hi Jen from Pizza here, sorry to interrupt.
Share
Speaker 4
41:57
I want to let you know that every one of these podcasts features a different guest.
Share
42:00
Each guest offers a great insights into the music industry like Mark's talk with Jenny Kaufman from Terry Bird Media, they examined digital music marketing, streaming and play lee smith boasting for artists, go listen to that episode.
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Kevin Breuner
42:14
There's so much information you want to take notes if you're single is just setting something else up, you know, at minimum, you want to make sure that, I always say two weeks because at minimum you want to use the pitching tools that the digital service platforms like Spotify and
Amazon
are starting to make available to you as artists.Share
42:40
Because like for example Spotify, if they have your music at least a week before its release date, it'll show up in your Spotify for artists account, you can use their pitching tool and you know, they ask for a bunch of extra information and you can, you know, it says it pitches it to their editors, which that's kind of like you know, a long shot.
Share
43:03
But when you use that tool it'll push your new release to all your fans through release radar discover weekly. And so it's like why wouldn't you allow that time to make sure that your fans know that you have a new release with
Amazon
, that tool is available up until two weeks after the release. So they they let you use that tool after the release date. And I think it's like starting a week out as well.Share
43:34
They they have to have the music in the system at least a week out. So like if you got in their system a month out of that, you'll be able to use the tool same as Spotify.
Share
43:42
So the point being is that if you're trying to release something in less than a week's worth of days, you won't have access to that tool. And so for those singles that are setting up an album, you wanna make sure you're at least allow enough time to use that.
Share
43:56
Because those become the promotion items that start building momentum for the actual album release, and that helps you tell the story that hey, there's new music coming.
Share
44:06
So instead of just shouting, we've got a new album coming out this date, we got a new album coming on this date, and you just keep saying the same thing over and over again, you have new music that drops and it's like, oh your fans get a small bite, then they get another small bite.
Share
44:16
Now they get the whole meal and now they get the follow up with all the the other interesting things that you can do, like remixes, live tracks, alternate mixes, and all that kind of stuff.
Share
Mark Brown
44:28
And so like just before I go to the next question, the one thing I like about your the sort of the season of releases or whatever, I think it's really good is I know a lot a lot of artists feel under pressure to get everything right, and I think that's completely impossible.
Share
44:44
So the idea that you do different types of releases over time means that you can learn as you go and the idea that what you didn't do on what you screwed up or didn't do on the first release, you can learn and do it on the next one and that it is a building process because artists are so under so much pressure to get things where I got the music has got to be right and I've got to do this and how do I get this done?
Share
45:08
And I think it's so important that it's just like, you're not gonna get everything right and it's a building process. Is that not correct?
Share
Kevin Breuner
45:15
Yeah, absolutely, and that's how I look at it as well.
Share
45:19
I think I see in the chat, one of the questions are, what are some good goals to set when releasing music?
Share
45:26
You know, I'll get to that in a second, but when you set some goals, it's like, you're like, well, if I didn't hit it or we hit one of them, but because when on the next one, I'm gonna tweet this thing and it'll get and I think we'll have a better chance to get that goal.
Share
45:40
But some of the goals like I set for my self, when releasing music is like, Okay, for a single, it'd be great. You know, we're independent artists, it'd be great to have 10,000 streams for it by the end of the first week.
Share
45:55
Okay, And then then you have to kind of work backwards. Well, how am I going to do that? And the idea of having goals is it's supposed to help focus your activity in the right direction because oftentimes with marketing and this isn't just for music is just marketing in general, people don't set a goal so they just take stabs in the dark in all different directions and it doesn't really move towards one thing.
Share
46:15
And so when they don't reach their, you know, don't have success, it's hard to pinpoint what went wrong. And so it's like setting that goal in defining what it is is helpful. Another really great goal around releases like, hey, in the prerelease portion, like when we're building up to release, I want to grow our Spotify followers By 1000, I'm just throwing out random numbers here.
Share
46:42
And okay, okay, how am I gonna get people to follow us on Spotify? Well, there are tools and I mentioned one like an idea that I did that say, okay, when I can use this tool come up with a creative campaign and get people to follow us on Spotify that way as our album is being released, Spotify sees a lot of activity of people following us.
Share
47:02
And then when it comes out, release radar will push the track to all those people. And so oftentimes you'll have fans that are that like your music, they just haven't click the follow button. There's lots of bands.
Share
47:14
I, I love and just haven't thought to click the follow button when I've had it on Spotify or it was inconvenient or I was on my phone and didn't think to push it. And so it's like, so that's another goal, like how can I increase these followers? So when the drops release radar will push it to all of them. So there's a cup that's a couple ideas.
Share
Mark Brown
47:32
No, and I think like the idea of you can even just make up some number that you think is realistic and then if you don't hit it, you realize, oh, okay. I was being unrealistic in my goals, but now I understand what maybe I can accomplish.
Share
47:47
Like it's it's it's I I think it's so hard that people don't realize just how much experimentation is going on even for people, like surely like yourself, you know exactly what you're doing, but you're winging it like everybody else, I guess.
Share
Kevin Breuner
48:01
Yeah, I mean that's the thing, it's like the goal and, and as artists, it'd be very easy to, to kick yourself and you know, and get all down when you don't hit a goal. The goal is really just there to focus your work in a specific direction that you think will help guide success, don't fixate on the number.
Share
48:20
Oftentimes you don't know if it's ambitious or not, Sometimes you might have shot really low. And, but it's really just like looking at what will really help us, okay, this thing will help us. So making sure all your activity are moving towards that thing.
Share
48:36
And yeah, so for me when I'm, when I'm doing those things, it's like for me it's just really to help, make sure I'm not doing what a lot of people do and just start taking stabs in the dark or doing a lot of things that May be fine, but our lesser priority.
Share
48:52
And so it helps you also prioritize because there's lots of things you can do and all of them could be great, but you only have so much time and effort that you can give and so it's just, you know, make sure that at the end of the day you feel like you did what you could and then you can go back and learn from it.
Share
49:10
Like I know artists don't think about like looking at data much because it's like spreadsheets what numbers, that's why I got into music, so I don't have to do any of that.
Share
49:21
But there's so many stories and helpful things in data when you're doing marketing campaigns where you can see, oh you know what, why my campaign didn't work is like everything seemed to be going good. And this one thing I asked them to do just was confusing and they all got lost.
Share
49:36
Okay, well I need to fix that thing and so once I fix that, let's try it again and see if now it makes sense and it works, but there's just, you know, that's one of the things always have to remind myself after, you know, the release of new music is to go back mind the data, see what songs are working.
Share
49:53
What's connecting? Is it, is it tied to the activities that I was doing? Is something else happening? That's moving things forward. Was it the songs I thought that they would like, there's a lot of good info and and those things that help you inform the next release.
Share
Mark Brown
50:08
I think what's interesting and what you're saying is it's like, it's just lots of questions you're asking, you're being very curious about like, what is it, like, what did I know? What didn't I know, what can I learn?
Share
50:21
And I think like people, instead of thinking that they don't have the answers or that there's some elusive one answer, it's more like, just think of what you want to know and try to answer those questions and it'll lead you in a direction that maybe will bring, bring you to some sort of level of success or insight. Is it, is that correct? Like that? It's just maybe about being curious.
Share
Kevin Breuner
50:46
Yeah, I would say so because I mean, the one thing is what worked, what works today won't necessarily work five years from now. So like the idea of like or what worked for another artist May not work for you.
Share
51:00
It's, you know, that's, there's mystery around music and art and how people perceive it and what connects and what doesn't, at our conference recently, I I reminded everybody we're not widget makers, we're not making something that's a commodity that just sits on a shelf that, you know, people go to the store and it's like, do I want that version of that, or the other version?
Share
51:23
Okay, we'll get that one, It's like music connects to people Soul in various ways and does things that beyond what we can even measure at times. And so creating a process that helps you, I feel like you're moving in a specific direction and doing things that have had a pattern of success.
Share
51:40
And then looking at it because again things change over time. And so if you go, oh, I found the silver bullet, well that silver bullet is probably not gonna work.
Share
51:49
Two releases from now or three releases, because the way people interact online changes the way people market changes. It's it's, you know, the way people discover music is evolving.
Share
Mark Brown
51:60
So that's why I think being curious and really understanding what you're trying to accomplish is helpful and I think that word that you use the word process and it really is a process, it's, you know, it's a it is a discovery process. So this is a pre question one from the perspective of an of an artist, not not artist.
Share
52:23
Artist with an E at the end, very important with little budget. What are other ways to increase monthly listens and streams away from play listing? Because play listing isn't guaranteed. I think that's super insightful. What do you think about that?
Share
Kevin Breuner
52:36
Well, you know, little budget could impact this first part of the answer is that releasing more music is always, I mean the one thing I think that's interesting now with all these things we've been talking about is the act of releasing music is a promotion act. Now when I release music and it gets pushed to my fans, that is a promotion activity.
Share
52:58
So releasing music is promotion of itself because those things, these platforms are doing that for you.
Share
53:06
That wouldn't have been the case in the download or cd world because your music could sit there and have go to no one.
Share
53:14
If you have a tiny bit of budget the biggest bang for your buck with some of the options out there is
Facebook
ads.Share
53:29
And you know that that also includes Instagram and they just enabled where you can now boost Instagram reels so that's an option.
Share
53:38
So there that I always get hesitantly getting start talking about advertising because you can drop a lot of money and if you don't know what you're doing waste at all, but but
Facebook
ads, they typically for beginner advertisers, they're still affordable and they have some options that make it really easy, like even just, you know, advertisers will say never push the boost button.Share
54:03
Well that's because they're wanting to do much bigger, more advanced campaigns. But even just like having a nice promo thing hitting boost and making sure that all your fans know that there's new music out that can you can do for very cheap making videos is also another really easy thing to do now.
Share
54:24
So like YouTube videos, like that kind of video on social media, video on social media, all the platforms love video more than anything.
Share
54:33
So for example, if you're able to do a quick little snippet video, like showing there's new music and you know, you want the video to look interesting, but those perform much better and they also perform better as as as well.
Share
54:47
People people like seeing people watch videos more than they'll look at a static image. And that's why like, you know, that's why these platforms are constantly evolving where now, you know, if you're a big Instagram user, you've probably noticed a big decline in the activity on your feed.
Share
55:05
That's because Instagram is not pushing the feed, the main feed to people as much. They really want people using reels. And if you use reels, you'll see far more activity around your, what you're posting than you will just on the regular feed.
Share
55:18
But in general, going back to the question, like You can, you can reach a lot of people, especially if you, both your followers and potential people that
Facebook
would think might like your music for $20, you can reach a lot of people and, you know, so even if you have like something like $50, you can do a lot and I know we're talking to a very international audience here, so I can't convert for everybody's money.Share
Mark Brown
55:46
But but no, no, but but I think but you're also saying like, don't over keep it simple, stupid, don't overcomplicate it, like you don't need to do some complex campaign, just use the boost button. I think I like there's a lot of insight that because people think, oh that's never gonna work, but it's like actually it's the first step in the, in in the right direction.
Share
Kevin Breuner
56:07
Yeah, Ok, so
Facebook
has really done a lot to make that more effective than it used to be.Share
Mark Brown
56:12
So yeah, and then this next question is along the same way, what does social media marketing mean to you and what are the best industry practice? That's pretty broad. But I think it sort of follows on from what we were discussing.
Share
Kevin Breuner
56:25
Yeah, I think one thing social media marketing is not sitting on Tiktok or Instagram or
Facebook
all day just mindlessly scrolling. The other thing is using social media is great.Share
56:40
I think one thing that's that's important is is that you look at it as storytelling, you're trying to tell an interesting story and you want people to be engaged, you and social media, like the questions like you said it is pretty broad, different platforms reward different kind of content. So understanding what's working on that platform is great.
Share
57:03
The one word of caution I have for artists, and it's hard to get real specific because artists can be all over the map and what they do and what their goals as an artist, someone beyond tour, someone to just build audiences online.
Share
57:17
I mean there's so many different strategies and ideas of how to go about it, but, I always tell artists that if you feel like you're just on a social media hamster wheel, just running and not really understanding what you're getting out of it or how it's benefiting your music, it might not be, and if it's not, there's no reason to do it, because if it's not building your audience.
Share
57:40
And the other thing being that when you build an audience on social media, you should be darn sure you're trying to get them off social media as much as you can, where you have an email address some sort of way where you own the relationship because social media platforms come and go or they make it harder and harder and harder for you to reach your fans
Facebook
when you posted something years ago, all your followers would see it now, you have to basically pay.Share
58:08
And they all kind of go through that cycle of having this time where it's a sweet spot, it's really working and people see what we're doing to, like, hey, it feels like no one's seen what I do anymore.
Share
58:19
So as you build audiences in these places ideally, it's because it's not some, you know, side gimmick you're doing, but it's related to your music and as you build those audiences, because it's a great communication, there's a lot of great communication platforms, but that you are being intentional and offering those people that really like your music a deeper connection to you. So you own that relationship.
Share
Mark Brown
58:41
So I think we should make this the last question because also we're actually doing a much more in depth one day event on this stuff together with Beat And Cd Baby. So we should anybody who wants to come to that sign up.
Share
58:53
But let's make this the last question because it's super detailed with my goal being to perform and to have a fan base by merchant a few countries in europe. I'm currently running my ads to multiple countries with one ad.
Share
59:07
Would it be best to separate the ads per country? And if so, how long should I promote to each country before moving on to the next one. That is pretty interesting because it's, it's about where do I put my focus? So what do you think on that?
Share
Kevin Breuner
59:22
It's my answer would be, it depends.
Share
Mark Brown
59:26
No, that's the wrong answer. We want a simple one or one word, do this answer.
Share
Kevin Breuner
59:32
Well, without knowing, you know, if those countries are speaking in different languages, even if english is a language that is using those countries, like I know a lot of Europeans speak english, but it May not be their first language.
Share
59:48
I would have versions of those ads in their first language because it'll feel more local, it'll feel more like you're talking to them.
Share
01:00:01
But also I would say that if what I say, it depends because I don't, you could have some very specific hooks that hook into whether it's something related to their culturally that's relevant in their country.
Share
01:00:18
I mean, you can think about it that way, if you think about people in general, there's some people are in various types of social groups or do certain things and trying to appeal to that group, so understanding what type of person likes your music or if there's a connection in those countries, like if you're playing shows all across and there can be a connection that ties it in in the ad, then I would definitely run separate ads.
Share
01:00:42
I don't think you have to, I've certainly done ads worldwide that were the same ad everywhere and you can optimize for that.
Share
01:00:50
So to me that's where you gotta go to the data and understand is is everything performing equally across the board, because if it is then it's probably fine if you're looking at the data and a country where you've seen some success, it looks like selling merch.
Share
01:01:04
But your ads are performing well in that country, Maybe you need to tailor that ad for that local audience because something there might be a cultural disconnect the way you're talking about it May not make sense. And so that's sort of like language, you know, even in, you know, I'm in the US in in the UK for some reason, they use an S instead of a Z on some of the words. And so it very much stands.
Share
Mark Brown
01:01:26
They do indeed. They do, but but but but but but it's because everybody in North America is spelling it wrong. But anyway, I I think what's also really important with this question is the idea that like, don't overcomplicated again, start a certain way if you want to run the same ad in all countries, because it's easier try that and see how it goes, but you don't want to jump through the steps.
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01:01:52
Because I find personally, even trying to learn any of these ad platforms as an individual or someone who doesn't do it as a full time job, it's very, very, very overwhelming.
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01:02:03
And it's like you'll find the answer based on the the steps you take and the the questions you ask, just like what, what's the ad look like, what what language is that all those things are are really where your answer is gonna lie, isn't that.
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Kevin Breuner
01:02:20
Yeah. Yeah. And I think you're correct in saying that start simple because you've got to learn as you go. If you start super complicated, then you've you've instantly increased so many variables that, that you don't even understand and and and complicating these platforms and that can be very labor intensive to use correctly. So to me, it's like start with a simple ad that you think will connect, did it work?
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01:02:45
Did it work in all those countries? If so, then great, if not, then start with optimizing the ad itself, like the idea, and then as you get more comfortable and time allows and budget allows, then you can start getting a little bit more Fancy and splitting things up. But keep starting simple is the best way with with all these things.
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Mark Brown
01:03:06
So yeah, instead of keep it simple, how about let's see what this is what I want to end on. Ss start simple, you start simple and then later on, keep it simple, but at the start start simple.
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01:03:20
And I think like, I think that is the best place to end because it's too easy to go off in so many directions to figure out all these different variables and really what you want to do is you just want to take a couple of simple steps and build from there, ultimately, I guess. Right?
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Kevin Breuner
01:03:35
Yeah, I think oftentimes and I've done it myself, I've gotten real deep in some of these ad platforms with music and running all these things and funnels, and it gets it gets really challenging even just to manage it, even when you know what you're doing.
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01:03:52
So it's like you don't want to start there, start with like it should be fun and creative and feel like you're creating something that's interesting that makes people want to check out your music or your merge or whatever your advertising and if and if you overcomplicated things, I usually think the creative part, the thing that will attract people in the first place suffers.
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Mark Brown
01:04:10
Okay, perfect, Well that's great. So Kevin thanks so much. Thanks from dialing in from the hotel lobby next to the elevator.
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01:04:20
It's much appreciated and have a great have a great time in
Atlanta
and thanks to everybody for coming.Share
Kevin Breuner
01:04:26
Yeah, thank you.
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Mark Brown
01:04:28
See you later. Bye bye bye bye everyone.
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01:04:37
Hey, it's Mark again.
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01:04:38
Thanks for listening.
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01:04:40
I want to thank our special guests, Kevin bruner for chatting with me.
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01:04:44
Plus thanks to Jamie Ford from people who make sure every conversation goes off without a hitch as well as
Colin McKenzie
, our podcast, producer and editor.Share
01:04:53
Music is by Finn Productions and Oliver leave that how we listen live in conversation podcasts are brought to you by Beretta Dot Com Beta enables the sending and receiving of digital audio in a clean, simple and secure way built for everyone working with music today.
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01:05:11
Each month I speak with someone new who works in and around the music ecosystem. The live online series takes place on the last Tuesday of every month is free to sign up and attend, Come and get in on the conversation, go to beat the dot com for more information. Thanks for listening, and get in touch with any questions.
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Mark Brown
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