Friday, Feb 4, 2022 • 22min

Gabrielius Landsbergis: Tension in Eastern Europe

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Russian forces continue to gather close to Ukraine’s eastern and northern borders, and still the world waits to see what Vladimir Putin’s end game is. If the goal is to wring security concessions out of the US and its Nato partners, does he have any chance of success? Stephen Sackur speaks to Gabrielius Landsbergis, who is foreign minister of Lithuania and on the frontline of tensions between Russia and Nato.

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Stephen Sackur

00:00

Hello and welcome to this podcast from

the BBC World Service

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the BBC World Service

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Break

Stephen Sackur

00:54

Welcome to Hard Talk on

the BBC World Service

with me,

Stephen Sackur

. My guest hails from a family which has played a central role in the modern history of

Lithuania

Gabrielius Landsbergis

is the country's foreign minister. His grandfather was a leading light in

Lithuania's

independence movement and its first post-Soviet head of state. Tensions with

Russia

have been pretty much a constant in the last three decades, but right now they have reached a new level.

01:24

More than 100,000 Russian troops are gathered close to the border with

Ukraine

. There is much speculation about an imminent attack and a war which would send shockwaves through all of

Eastern

Europe and beyond. The

Baltic States

, mindful of their history and geography are pushing fellow

NATO

members to adopt the toughest of responses to

Moscow's

maneuvering.

01:48

But just how united is the west as the tension ratchets up,

Lithuania

is making plenty of noise on other geopolitical fronts too. It's become a haven for Belarussian opposition to the

Lukashenko

regime, and even for some of Russia's

anti-Putin

activists too.

02:07

Vilnius

also finds itself in a diplomatic and economic feud with

China

over its stance on

Taiwan

. All in all that is quite a lot of diplomatic heavy lifting for a country of 2.8 million people. Is it hubris or savvy strategic positioning?

02:25

Well, Gabrielius

Landsbergis

joins me now on the line from

Vilnius

. Welcome to Hard Talk.

Gabrielius Landsbergis

02:32

Hello, good evening.

Stephen Sackur

02:33

It's nice to have you on the show.

Foreign Minister

just a few days ago, you said of

Ukraine

, you said we are convinced that a real war is a likely possibility. The diplomacy is still continuing. Are you now dialing down your rhetoric about war?

Gabrielius Landsbergis

02:51

Well, the our observations about, about war is from what we see on the ground. The troops are still gathering and not only on Ukrainian border, but also in

Belarus

and apart from troops, there are equipment armament, everything that is needed for an actual war.

03:09

So if

Putin

wanted to create a credible threat, I think that he's really getting there so that we, the neighbors of, of

Ukraine

or countries in the region. We truly believe that he's actually have these intentions, but that doesn't mean that we do not trust that diplomacy can still prevail actually, as we've seen in the past. You know, even when the war starts, sometimes diplomacy still continues.

Stephen Sackur

03:35

Right. I just wonder if you're getting the tone right if you're actually being helpful with all of this talk of the likelihood of war, because

Vladimir Zelensky

, the president of

Ukraine

, says, "Look, we do not need to panic. "

03:49

And his advisor to the Chief of Staff said constant, extremely emotional messages, how a big war is going to start tomorrow or the day after tomorrow or the day after that, they create real economic risk for us. So maybe you need to rethink.

Gabrielius Landsbergis

04:06

When we are speaking, and I'm talking, you know, not only as the Lithuanian but also someone coming from the

Baltic

region. When we're talking about issues of security, we talk about our security as well.

04:18

And we think that we are already in a different situation that we've been, let's say in last last year's October because the build-up of troops and the so-called exercise in

Belarus

where Belarussian and Russian troops will be actively exercising since starting from 10 February. Actually, they affect our security if the troops would remain after 20 February on Lithuanian border on Polish border, that creates a security deficit in our region.

04:51

And this is also very important point that we are, we're here as a

Baltic States

, politicians are trying to make that

Russia

is not only threatening

Ukraine

, it wants to change the security architecture of the whole region and that directly affects us.

Stephen Sackur

05:07

We'll talk more about that. I just wonder whether you feel that

Lithuania

feels that as a member of

NATO

, that the

NATO

alliance right now has got the cocktail of responses to

Putin

right?

05:19

Because that cocktail basically involves sending troops, biden's announced he's sending a few 1000 extra troops to

Eastern

Europe

in the next few days sending some military equipment and U in the

Baltic States

are sending limited military equipment to

Ukraine

and then talking very, very tough about sanctions that will follow any Russian military operation. Do you think the cocktail as it stands is the right one?

Gabrielius Landsbergis

05:44

But basically we are in the situation that was created not by us, and some of us are scrambling the old history books and trying to look for the lessons learned from the

Cold War

time or the things that happened after the

Cold War

and looking for the answers, the right answers to the situation.

06:01

I'm convinced that there are a couple of things that are needed to be done. First of all, we need to send support to

Ukraine

and only not only with words and nice thoughts. It has to be real. It has to be practical. Then we need to reinforce the countries that have, as I mentioned that what we call a security deficit. And we're seeing that

United States

are doing exactly that.

06:22

Currently the countries that are affected the most, they are reinforced first, we expect that the

Baltic States

would follow. Then when we're talking about sanctions, if we are expected and we if we tell that they have to be unbearable, they have to be unbearable.

06:38

Therefore, in

Lithuania

, we rarely talk about the possibility of red lines being that, you know, the things that we would not do in case of an actual attack against

Ukraine,

or an act of

Belarus

. Basically, all options need to be on the table because we don't know what specific action

Putin

and his troops might be thinking of.

Stephen Sackur

07:01

And what do you mean by that?

Gabrielius Landsbergis

07:03

I mean that in effect many of us in Western countries, we think that

Belarus

is already law has already lost its sovereignity, but before in last year and after the election in 2020, there were no permanent Russian troops basis in

Belarus

still maintained its own border control.

07:26

But what we're seeing now, the troop build-up is so massive that basically it changes the situation in

Belarus

quite dramatically, especially if we see that the troops remain. And then the question is and will be posed whether is

Belarus

still a sovereign country.

Stephen Sackur

07:42

So getting back to the question of whether

NATO

has got it right. I just wonder when you say things like, "The battle for

Ukraine

is going to be basically a battle for

Europe"

. Whether you think

NATO

ruling out sending fighting troops to

Ukraine

itself is the right strategy?

Gabrielius Landsbergis

08:01

I think that

Ukraine

has all the potential to defend its country, its territory. I don't think that the country has enough time and resources currently to arm itself. Therefore this is the main point that we need to cover.

08:17

And as you've, as you've mentioned,

Lithuania

and other

Baltic States

, we're doing our part. And we know that we cannot do a lot, but maybe we're sending the right signal to two other partners in the west, what should be done?

Stephen Sackur

08:30

Right? But if you are meaning by that, that you want to see the

and European partners ramping up weapons supplies to

Ukraine

in short order, that is precisely

Russia's

point that what

NATO

is doing is representing a new level of threat on

Russia's

border in

Russia's

neighborhood. And that is not only unacceptable, it also breaks promises made to

Russia

about what

NATO

would do in

Eastern

Europe

, going back to 1990.

Gabrielius Landsbergis

09:02

Well, I think that we need to separate a few things. Allowing people and making sure that they would be able to defend their own country is not a threat to anybody. Basically it's an assurance that the country will stand for, what it believes it's vital for it and I think that it would go for any country.

Stephen Sackur

09:22

You seriously think that these level of armaments being sent to

Ukraine

and the thousands and thousands of extra troops to be deployed by

NATO

in the countries of

Eastern

Europe

, which of course were once part of the Soviet sphere of influence. You seriously think that won't be regarded as threatening from

Moscow

Gabrielius Landsbergis

09:44

Look, I think that what is already threatening is Russian troops that are already on Belorusian and Lithuanian border. What I think is threatening is occupied

Crimea

, what I think is threatening is troops in

Transnistria

, in

Cappadocia

, in

Ossetia

, in parts of

Armenia

and elsewhere. I think these things are have been threatening their stability and security for very long time.

10:12

And to add to that in two since 2008, when actual borders first for the first time in a very long time in the well broader European region where crossed this is what is actually, threatening.

Stephen Sackur

10:27

Right, but I want you to address

Vladimir Putin's

sense of recent history. He is convinced that going back to 1990 the Western powers,

NATO

gave promises. Maybe they were oral promises. But there were promises nonetheless that

NATO

would not militarize the area which was until then, the former Soviet empire.

10:52

What we now see is militarization by

NATO

. In fact, let me ask you something specific about

Lithuania

. There are two influential mps who have written a report in

Lithuania

saying that what they want to see is a permanent

battalion-sized military base put by

Washington DC

on your soil. Is that your desire your strategy?

Gabrielius Landsbergis

11:17

Well I can say that with everything that I mentioned with a country that is actively acting as an aggressor against its neighbors and thinking of a myriad of arguments why does it need to behave the way there is only one thing that can make the people of

Lithuania

, the people of

Latvia

Estonia

and other countries more safe and secure is having our partners with us defending our territories.

11:44

Probably this is the single most important thing that happened since our regaining of our independence joining

is joining

NATO

and having the fifth article and our partners defending us.

Stephen Sackur

11:58

So you wanted so just to be clear, you want to turn your country into a major military, permanent military base for the

United States

Gabrielius Landsbergis

12:06

We believe that our partners helping us defend our country's basically saves us from any attempts by

Russia

to try something adventurous on our borders. There are those who discuss in

Lithuania

and not so few of them that if not for

NATO

wouldn't we have a similar situation like like happened in 2008 in

Georgia.

Because military adventurism is really likely, especially in those countries who are not not part of

NATO

. So we will...

Stephen Sackur

12:38

I mean, I hear your point I mean but I'm mindful you're the foreign minister. You believe I'm sure you believe in the power of diplomacy and the power of compromise.

12:48

The Russians are insistent. And they have said that the recent

response to their demands about a pullback of

NATO

from Eastern

Europe

is inadequate. They've said because the key question as far as

Moscow

is concerned is being ignored. And Lavrov puts it like this, the

and its allies have to understand the principle that they cannot strengthen their security at the expense of another country's security, i. e.

Russia's.

Are you prepared here and now to tell me that you're listening to

Russia

, you understand what they're saying and that there are some concessions you and

NATO

partners can make?

Gabrielius Landsbergis

13:27

Look when You said that, you know,

Putin

wants to bring the world back to 1990s, I think that you know, we need to really look even more back to their concerts of powers where you know, big powers were divided, dividing the map into their zones of influence. And I'm absolutely sure that these times are way, way, way over. We have to be sure. And to make sure that the countries can themselves choose their security options. It's not about zones of influence actually, if

Russia

wants to be serious about what it's saying.

14:03

First of all the troops need to be um withdrawn from the territories that it currently keeps under occupation. And I'm talking about

Eastern Ukraine

. I'm talking about

Crimea

territories of

Georgia

and territories of

Moldova

. This is where any sort of meaningful debate would be would be started.

Stephen Sackur

14:21

You're taking a tough stand and I just wonder whether you're worried that

NATO

and the European union are not united around the tough talk that you're giving me. I mean, if one looks at

Berlin

, for example, we see a german government that is adamant, it will not send weapons to

Ukraine

. In fact, they're limiting it to a field hospital and a few 1000 helmets.

14:44

And we hear the Croatian president say that actually

Ukraine

has no place in

NATO

. So you guys in

Europe

and in

NATO

you are very far from united.

Gabrielius Landsbergis

14:57

Well, ahah... well saying "you guys looks like", you know, we've spent so much time apart, but that's not not long ago that we were not you guys, but all of us guys, and I still believe that the Western community will find an answer. Because it's not about the divisions in

Europe

that

Putin

is looking at what he would really like to achieve is divisions within the broader community between

EU,

UK,

and

try to find the differences right to find what divides us and then show to the rest of the world that look, these guys cannot, you know, make up their minds how tough or not tough they want to be.

Stephen Sackur

15:35

Well, that's there isn't that to a certain extent, that is true. Let's just take one specific, you've talked about unbearable sanctions being brought to bear on the Russian economy, if

Putin

makes a move another move in

Ukraine

15:48

The truth is

Germany

, for example, has expressed deep disquiet about the possibility that

Russia

be blocked from access to the

SWIFT

international financial transaction system because they worry it would do too much damage to the general international financial system. Again, unbearable sanctions, it's not going to happen.

Gabrielius Landsbergis

16:10

Well, that's the point I made before that coming from my government, where we have the position that no red lines have to be drawn uh for when we're talking about about the sanctions, because it sends not the best signal to

Moscow

, we need to be open about a number of possibilities, depending on what

Russia

is doing, That means that we would have a broader spectrum of answers to the developing situation.

16:43

I've read the resolution from

Congress

, and maybe you've seen that as well. It also has a few lines about possibility to ban the imports of oil, coal and many other, um, extracted goods from

Russia

, but it also has a line that it should not destroy the global supply lines. So basically what they're saying is that we really need to look at all options and put them all on the table.

17:16

But then again, at the end of the day, you know, if it's damaging more, particularly more to the to the countries who are imposing those sanctions and maybe there's some, some bands could be, could be found, but this sort of discussion is ongoing, not only in

Germany

but in many, many, many other places.

Stephen Sackur

17:33

Did you think it's wise for

Lithuania

to be tweaking

Moscow's

tail in so many different ways at the same time, your tough talk on the

Ukraine

crisis, but also you've turned your country into essentially a sort of dissident base for belarussian politicians who have had to flee from, look at

Lukashenko's

dictatorship and of course you are a very strong loud advocate of regime change now in

Belarus

and you also have offered safe haven to one of

Alexei Navalny,

biggest sort of allies in his political movement, which of course is profoundly

anti-Putin

. How far are you going to take your determination to do what you can against

Putin?

Gabrielius Landsbergis

18:19

When there's a choice between the oligarchs and dissidents, we choose dissidents. So that's that.

Stephen Sackur

18:26

Right. But you're a country of 2.8 million people. And right now you've taken on one heck of a diplomatic commitment fight because not only are you involved in these sort of wars of words and hostilities with

Russia

in diplomatic terms, but you've taken on a feud with

China

at the very same time and you personally have been at the forefront of that with your decision to allow the

Taiwan

government to open up a representative office, which they're calling the office of

Taiwan

rather than Taipei, which is the usual diplomatic formulation. Why did you choose to confront

Beijing

like that?

Gabrielius Landsbergis

19:09

Well, we didn't choose to confront

Beijing

allowing Taiwanese to open the office under exactly that name. I think that you know...

Stephen Sackur

19:20

You did choose because everybody else in

Europe

still uses this weird diplomatic formulation: office of Taipei. You decided to end that and to just say outright, it's the Office of Taiwan.

Gabrielius Landsbergis

19:34

It's the Office of Taiwanese Taiwanese people. Maybe we we are drawing some inspiration from the agreement that was signed between the PRC and

United States

in 1979, which said that the people of the

United States

can have a cultural and economic relations with with people of

Taiwan

. So for us that Taiwanese representation means exactly that. And we were upset that, you know, the country is upset about that.

Stephen Sackur

20:12

Well, are you upset also that you misread the scale of the Chinese reaction because your own deputy Foreign Minister,

Mr. Adomėnas

has said

China

has responded not only bilaterally with all of the the the trade sanctions that they've placed on

Lithuania

, but they've also imposed de facto sanctions on the EU single market by targeting any other businesses across

Europe

that have Lithuanian sort of components as part of their products that they're trying to sell to

China

20:38

So you've created a big problem for other people in

Europe

and it seems it spiraled out of control in a way that you never imagined?

Gabrielius Landsbergis

20:46

Well, that's one way to put it. But I would like to rephrase it, that it's not us who did something wrong? We never did anything illegal. It's

China

decided to escalate it to the single market. And actually, this is why the consultations in

WTO's

time.

Stephen Sackur

21:02

But with respect, you say you did nothing wrong, but your own president says that you made a mistake with this name change and he wants you to take it back. So you can tell me on hard talk, are you prepared to say I got it wrong? This is too much pressure on

Lithuania

. We're going to change the name to Taipei.

Gabrielius Landsbergis

21:19

Well, I'm glad to correct you there, that we have an agreement with the

President

, that we are not taking the name back and it stays because we are convinced that we did nothing illegal and everything else will be sorted in the manus that are usually used for that for these cases.

Stephen Sackur

21:38

Right. The biggest opposition bloc in your parliament says normalization of relations with

China

must begin and it must begin with the removal of

Landsbergis

is from the post of Foreign Minister. The pressure on you is growing.

Gabrielius Landsbergis

21:52

Well, this is what the opposition does in any democratic country and I'm glad that we're a democracy.

Stephen Sackur

21:59

Let's finish with that idea of you being a democracy throughout this conversation, you've stressed

Lithuania's

commitment to defending freedom and democracy in your own country across

Europe

. If you are to be credible and serious with that position, is it not time for

Lithuania

to look within, to look at the way it over decades and decades has refused to tell the truth about the story of what Lithuanians did to collaborate with the

nazis

in the killing of Jews in the

Second World War

Gabrielius Landsbergis

22:28

Well, I think that

Lithuania

really is taking the right steps in that regard and as history is extremely difficult for any country, we've learned our lessons uh, and we're making our amends.

Stephen Sackur

22:42

Well, have you been to your own museum, which used to be called the genocide museum I think is now called the Museum of Occupation And Freedom Fighting.

22:51

A museum, which remarkably has one small room devoted to what happened to the Jews and how Lithuanians may have worked with the

nazis

, but actually has three full flaws, all devoted what is still called a genocide committed by the Soviets against your people. There doesn't appear to be a willingness to be truthful about how some of even your national heroes collaborated with the

nazis

. Is it time to change?

Gabrielius Landsbergis

23:16

Well, I think that it's a healing process and it's the country has to heal from many wounds that it uh that occurred in for to the people of our country. And it takes time and I would love to see that going faster. But unfortunately, if we want that to be sustainable, we need, we need to allow the country to heal. And I'm quite convinced that we will have some good news in that regard, when we're talking about the museums, we have to end their foreign minister.

Stephen Sackur

23:49

Landsbergis

, thank you very much for joining me on Hard Talk.

Gabrielius Landsbergis

23:52

Thank you. Thank you for the questions.

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