Sunday, Nov 14, 2021 • 1h, 56min

'Red (Taylor's Version)' | Every Single Album: Taylor Swift

Every Single Album

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Grab your red scarves and some wine, because it's time to talk about 'Red (Taylor's Version).' Nora and Nathan talk about how successful her re-records have been so far (1:00) and some of the differences between the old versions of her songs and new (22:46). Then they dive into the vault songs, talking about 'Better Man' (41:32), Phoebe Bridgers's verse on 'Nothing New' (51:01), and of course the 10-minute version of 'All Too Well' (1:01:26). Hosts: Nora Princiotti and Nathan Hubbard Producer: Kaya McMullen Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Talking about

Speakers

(3)

Nora Princiotti

Nathan Hubbard

Taylor Swift

Transcript

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Break

Nora Princiotti

00:28

Hello and welcome at long last to a brand new episode of every single album

Taylor Swift

. I'm Nora Princiotti, I am a staff writer at

The Ringer

and I am here with

Nathan Hubbard

, hi Nathan.

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Nathan Hubbard

00:46

Hi Nora

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Nora Princiotti

00:48

Hello. We're back! We got to listen to

Red Taylor's Version

the other night, and yesterday and today, and this morning, and right before we started recording this podcast.

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Nathan Hubbard

00:58

It's a lot of content.

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Nora Princiotti

00:59

It's a lot of content. We have a short film, we have 131 minutes of re-recorded

Taylor Swift

album. To dissect here, I was up until four in the morning. It takes a year. It takes a podcast.

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Nathan Hubbard

01:17

Here we are.

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Nora Princiotti

01:19

I'm very excited.

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01:20

So, okay, as we just said, there is a lot to process. Take me through your listening experience for the first time the other night to

Red Taylor's Version

. This new release that at long last has arrived.

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Nathan Hubbard

01:38

Well, we were told that the 10 minute version of

All Too Well

was going to have the f word in it.

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01:43

But before I heard any

Taylor Swift

music, I had said at least 50 f words because

Spotify

choked on the launch and it could not load up any of the artist page or uh

Red Taylor's Version

tracks so I was stuck and I found listen my my my purpose here was to go from start to finish and to not skip ahead to listen to this thing as she intended because this whole project is about her getting control of her music. The album matters to her.

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02:24

So I wanted to honor that and I wanted to go start to back but it wasn't possible to start. The only thing that was available was on a few new music playlists. The 10 minute version of

All Too Well

was there. So after swearing that I was not going to skip ahead and cheat.

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02:43

I totally skipped ahead and cheated and I went to

All Too Well

10 minute version and we'll get to why that was actually I think an okay and a wonderful way to start the process. But then after About 15 minutes I finally got into the album and I listened to it front to back, what did you do Nora?

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Nora Princiotti

03:04

So I didn't have to deal with that hiccup. I mean look, there's a lot of

Taylor Swift

fans out there. This album is streaming at like gargantuan Goliath insane numbers.

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Nathan Hubbard

03:15

We should have put these tracks in a dedicated data server like a data center. Like it needs a ton of servers in a data center that is just for

Taylor Swift

launches. This woman needs a lot of support stuff. Also, also, I'm asking you how you listen to this. Like we weren't just completely blowing up each other's phones during the whole thing.

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Nora Princiotti

03:36

I was like, I was, I was initially kind of mad at you that you listened to

All Too Well

, 10 minutes at first, but I got over it. I was mad at me. I understood, I understood why it happened. I did not have that issue because I live on the east coast. So I was watching

Taylor

on

Jimmy Fallon

at midnight at the drop.

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Nathan Hubbard

03:54

Yeah. And I didn't know that was so annoying to be on the west coast for that and like have to have you telling me like she's wearing a crazy dress. She's now in the Diana revenge dress. It doesn't sound like she's announcing anything and I had to wait three more hours for that crap.

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Nora Princiotti

04:08

The revenge dress was on

Seth Meyers

, we'll get to that, we'll get to that. We'll get to that. There's a lot. There is so much fun pack here guys. I'm so excited. But then once the late night appearance was over, I just listened top to bottom, went back into the vault after I was finished. I went to bed very, very late at night or early the next morning technically.

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04:29

But, did it start to finish. So with that in mind, I want us to frame part of this conversation. I want us to get sort of big picture because it's very easy to just dive into these songs and dive into the easter eggs and look at all the details. And we're definitely going to do that.

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04:48

But let's not forget that this is part of a broader project of

Taylor

, rerecording her back catalog. So is there anything that we learned from the release of

Fearless

Taylor's Version

and the subsequent performance of that album that kind of should frame how we look at this project, this new release and analyze how successful it's been.

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Nathan Hubbard

05:13

Yes. But first I want to ask you and you have to put up your right hand and tell the truth, did you listen to any of the leaked album?

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Nora Princiotti

05:21

None zero. Not a note.

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05:24

Not a note.

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05:26

Well I swear on the movie Valentine's Day. Not a single note.

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Nathan Hubbard

05:30

So neither did I and neither did my daughters whose like in boxes and other messaging apps were flooded with the tracks before she got to first period in school on Friday.

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05:48

And so I don't think that it had a real impact. But somewhere in the chain of distribution of these files and if you think about it, the record label,

Taylor's

holding onto these files, there are a bunch of places you can listen to music,

Spotify

and

Apple

and

Amazon

.

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06:05

But then a lot of others all around the world where they have to give them these files with all of the metadata around them and the lyrics and all this stuff to get it uploaded into the system and it takes time they have to test it. Human beings have to check that. It's all right. And that period takes about five hours before the leak until launch.

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06:27

Right? Because those files went out and some human being in between

Taylor

and her fans took those files and put them up on the internet now in the grand scheme of things. Doesn't matter. Not in a big way today because so little of the sales and consumption of the album are coming through physical copies.

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06:47

Obviously vinyl is huge and a lot of people but those are collectibles. It's not about actually how you listen to the music and it doesn't certainly undermine anybody going out and buying that vinyl because they're actually in it for the physical thing.

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06:59

But as we talk about the success of this project and it has been wildly successful, we've heard

Taylor's

feelings about leaks before and how they were really crushing for her. In this case I suspect it was less devastating to have the music out there a few hours in advance.

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07:16

But it still is an indication that there are people between her and her fans. So I think this was a huge advertisement for

NFTs

. In music like these

Non Fungible Tokens

. It's been tried before by

Kings Of Leon

and some others with some success but it's also less. Some fans feeling like it was a money grab.

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07:35

There's a lot happening in the world of

NFTs

. But the concept is basically that you can create a public record of ownership of digital goods and embed smart contracts so that

Taylor

could receive ongoing income as these things that she puts out are resold and she can offer unique and exclusive rights to fans.

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07:54

Like we saw those fans going crazy in the premier of the short film last night. Like how did they get in there? Well, they were part of a right, they're part of a database that they have that measures that.

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08:03

But the question is, can she circumvent the distribution chain where there are clearly still some assholes in the way who are willing to betray her and can she sell her stuff directly? She's got this huge catalog and there's opportunities to do this right? The flip side of that is that there's a lot of principles and

NFTs

.

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08:21

And the block chain that are about decentralization of ownership. And to your question, the entire point of this project is about

Taylor

consolidating ownership and control over her art.

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08:31

So let's see how she navigates the components of this going forward and and how she uses the technology and the piece is the technology that empower and reward and protect artists and what she leaves on the cutting room floor because it works against that mission behind this entire rerecord project. I mean,

Taylor

may become a

Crypto

bro. Yet Nora...

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08:53

Did you see the

Wall Street Journal

article yesterday?

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Nora Princiotti

08:56

Yes, I did. Yes I did, but in case-

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Nathan Hubbard

08:59

We made the

Journal,

Nora.

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Nora Princiotti

09:02

I'm very proud of us Nathan. And in case any of our listeners are not regular readers of the

Wall Street Journal

, why don't you tell everybody what we're talking about? And then I promise we're gonna get to just like spilling the tea about

Jake Gyllenhaal.

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Nathan Hubbard

09:14

We are. I mean, we're going to crush the tea on

Jake Gyllenhaal

. Look,

Anne Steele

wrote a really great piece in the

Journal

yesterday. They talked about two things. One is

Universal Music

is changing their contract structure with artists to try to ensure that the time at which an artist can re-record their stuff is much longer than it used to be.

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09:32

That's a direct response to what

Taylor

is doing. And ironically, she's part of

Universal Music

. So there's gonna be some awkwardness there, given that

Taylor

is trying to reclaim rights for artists and

Universal

seems to be creating contracts that are going to prevent an artist from re-recording their stuff.

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09:49

Now in practice, what's going to happen is it's going to force more artists to insist that they control their art up front, which is what

Taylor

wanted all along. That was the first part of the article. But the second part was a bunch of data that gives us really interesting insight into the quantitative impact of what

Taylor's

doing.

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10:07

And the journalist, we got a quote in there. But that meant that I had to see the data and it is fascinating. So walk with me through this. So old

Fearless

In 2020 before any of this started, old

Fearless

was hovering around 4.5 to 5 million streams per week. Whoa.

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10:26

So that's just like standard. How often somebody was listening to the old

Fearless

stuff and that is sort of representative of how many pennies are going into the pockets of the people who own in "quotes" old

Fearless

, right? That's the base that

Taylor

was like, hey, that should be mine.

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10:46

It explodes with the release of

Folklore

and it goes up 60% to like eight million streams per week.

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Speaker 4

10:54

The Fearless we were talking about.

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Nathan Hubbard

10:57

Right? And so just the interest,

Taylor

put's out new stuff and it grows up Interest in the rest of her catalog. Right? And then, so through the summer, listen, it decays a little bit through the rest of 2020, but it still, it still stays pretty high, higher than it had been before. Maybe 5.5 to 6 million. Then

Fearless

comes out the week of April 9th and it spikes back up again, 2 - 7.5 million streams a week.

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11:27

So now there's a new

Fearless

And just the comparison listening and interest alone spikes the old catalogue by like 50%. So again, she's putting out something new. But that old catalog is growing then its settled to like between 5.5 and 6 million streams this year, which is like sort of that's the sort of run rate. It's about, but it's still more than what existed before the re-release of

Fearless.

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11:52

Now, when

Fearless

came out, the new

Fearless

Taylor's Version

, it did 143 million in the first week. All right. So it's just blowing it's, you know, it's it's like blowing it out of the water. Eleventy million times what the old one is doing. But through the course of this dream, Yeah, thank you. I did it myself.

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Nora Princiotti

12:10

That's what Nathan told The

Wall Street Journal

the quote says

Nathan Hubbard

, former

Ticketmaster's

CEO co host of

The Ringer's

every single album. It's Eleventy million times that much end quote.

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Nathan Hubbard

12:23

That's a real number. So what happened is like by the by August of this year. Okay, New

Fearless

had settled into like 8.5 million streams per week, But old

Fearless

is still doing 5 - 5.5. So the net is that new

Fearless is

streaming like 1.5 times old

Fearless

.

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12:43

But old

Fearless

is probably up 10% where it used to be. So what does that all mean? Look, number one, it means when she generates interest in something, her entire catalog grows. People listen to other stuff when she puts out something new.

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Nora Princiotti

12:56

And that's going to tell us a lot about her business. But let's put that in practical terms for a second, because a lot of that sort of static, consistent streaming number with the old stuff. Yeah, that's plenty of people saying, oh, I love

Taylor Swift

, I'm going to go put on

Fearless

this afternoon while I hang out with my friends or while I do my dishes or whatever.

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13:16

But that's also a lot of my playlist called songs to cry too.

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Nathan Hubbard

13:22

That's it Nora.

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Nora Princiotti

13:23

And they just- they- those songs live there forever and always lives there.

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13:27

And it's just always- I'm probably and this is not me speaking as Nora Princiotti who will go to outlandish lengths for

Taylor Alison Swift

, but Joe Schmo, who thinks that the white horse

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Nathan Hubbard

13:41

I thought you were gonna say

Joe Alwyn

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Nora Princiotti

13:43

Oh my gosh. Let's leave him out of this for now.

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13:47

But no, Joe Schmo, Joe not Alwyn Schmo, who thinks that

white horse

is like an iconic tear jerker and forever and always is a great song to be pissed off too. And has those songs on Mo P Joe Schmo P playlist, those are always going to live there.

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Nathan Hubbard

14:06

You're making up words now but yes, that's it. They're not changing out the songs. So there's this like, legacy embedded base of listening to the old stuff, which is fascinating.

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Nora Princiotti

14:17

Well, and so that's interesting. I think as we start talking about the re-records on

Red

, we're going to do a lot of stuff. We have categories. We're gonna dive deep into the vault, but we're going to talk about the re-recorded songs from the original

Red

first because it was funny.

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14:38

I remember when we were doing this for

Fearless

Taylor's Version

, the stuff was

Scooter

and the stuff with the re-recording project and the Masters and the purpose of

Taylor

creating an asset for herself, but also potentially devaluing somebody else's that felt very, very front of mind.

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Nathan Hubbard

14:59

Do you think

she's

happy with this data?

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Nora Princiotti

15:01

Well, so that's the interesting question to me because this time around, I felt myself, I'm obviously aware of that context, but I felt myself approaching this one as what

Fearless

Taylor's Version

taught us was it's just fun as heck to go re inhabit the release of an album. That meant a lot to a lot of people. It's really fun to stay up late at night and tweet at people and text your friends.

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15:32

And go back through something that meant a lot at a certain point in time and has continued to up to the present and to get a new version of that to see some changes. See some similarities also got a bunch of this old, old new songs that we haven't heard before to live in that space is incredibly fun. I was thinking about that a lot more than I was thinking about.

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15:56

Well, what does this mean in terms of her ownership? And is this going to be highly effective in terms of devaluing the old one? Does this replace the original

Red

?

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16:08

And that's still obviously part of it. But to your question of whether or not she's happy with this. The question in there is was she thinking about this project as one intended to create new versions of her catalog that she would own, that would be very, very good assets, profitable assets make her a lot of money, be really, really valuable, really, really, you know, well appreciated by the fans or was that part of it.

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16:40

But then the other part of it was I don't believe that those other people who own my old work should own it and I want to tank the value of that asset because if she was, let's be like, we can be very blunt here. The data from

Fearless

says that if she was intending to tank the value of the old asset, she is not succeeding in that because people love her too much. People here knew

Fearless

and go

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Nathan Hubbard

17:02

Or they're lazy.

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Nora Princiotti

17:03

Well, it's a little bit of that, but I also think that it's created this, it's really really fun to listen to both.

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Nathan Hubbard

17:11

Yeah, I want back to listen to the old ones and make comparisons, didn't you?

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Nora Princiotti

17:14

Totally! And there's nothing about I think if this, if this project has had one big headline effect, it's reminded a lot of people, People like you and I don't need the reminding, but it's reminded a lot of other people how much they love

Taylor Swift

and it's kind of a rising tide situation.

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Nathan Hubbard

17:34

Yes, it is. I mean if this was all about spite, it's probably been a mixed bag because it's not clear that she's devalued the catalog that Shamrock bought from

Scooter Braun

, definitely the decay curve has steepened downward and nobody's going to license the old stuff for a film that they'll go to her for that.

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17:54

But you know, she has also on the flip side created this entirely new market with these releases that's performing like almost like any other album. I mean, new

Fearless

is 9% to 10% of her weekly total streams across her entire catalog. She's got 10 major albums if we include new

Fearless

.

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18:14

Okay, so that's about its fair share. Which is just to say like holy crap. She's created an entirely new market by re releasing these things. And I think Nora, that's what the marketing setup is about with

Red

. She gave this one more space, didn't she? She went on the late night talk shows.

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18:32

Fearless

definitely got stepped on a little bit by all of the content she'd released before from

Folklore

to

Long Pond

to

Evermore

. Right? All that content. It felt like maybe a little bit overshadowed those streaming numbers for new

Fearless

, at least she's thinking maybe it did.

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18:48

And so she gave this one a bunch more space. She had a long runway to ramp up to it. And now I think the question is, can they set this one up to do even better than that data that we just gave you about old

Fearless

and really start to eat into old

Red

. There's lots to find out still here.

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Nora Princiotti

19:06

Well. And the early returns are pretty positive in that regard because uh, to borrow a to borrow a quantitative phrase. Eleventy billion I think is basically what it seems like it's been doing so far.

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Nathan Hubbard

19:20

So what do we think about the music Nora?

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Nora Princiotti

19:23

All right. So, wow! Lot to do here.

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19:28

We're gonna talk first about the re-recorded old songs, the songs that we already knew, not get into the vault quite yet.

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19:37

My basic feeling was similar to

Fearless

in that they are- I think they are effective standards for the most part.

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19:47

I think what's fascinating about this and it does pertain, to you know, if we eventually get into 1989

Taylor's Version

is that there was a big difference to me between some of the deeper cuts and the big formerly

Max Martin

and

Shellback

. Now, just

Taylor

Shellback for the most part. Big smash hits.

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Nathan Hubbard

20:15

Yes. I agree with you. Look, it's pretty hard to tell the differences between these two things. I did some sine wave analysis where like I was bouncing between the two streams and through computer speakers. It's pretty hard to tell the difference. Like the fidelity to the original is really striking, but there are differences.

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20:39

I mean, look, the mix is different, It's consistent this time because Serbian Gonna, who's the Canadian mixing engineer worked on a bunch of the Mac stuff on

Red

originally and then more and more on

Reputation

and Sense, but he's he mixes this whole album and that has something to do, I think with what you heard and and look, the fan base is acknowledging this, this isn't shade, this isn't you?

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21:03

No disrespect. But there is something that's different, as you said, between the hits, the new hits and the old ones doesn't make them worse. But there is something different. And the obvious thing to point to is her voice, right? It elevates the ballads and the stripped down songs, but it doesn't have that frenetic woman at the dawn of adulthood on those rockers.

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21:27

And again, I think the fan base is acknowledging that without throwing darts, they're great and fun, they have different energy. That's okay. But we have to acknowledge it translates. There's two things I'd say number one, and we joked about this on the social stuff that we did, but there's a phrase in music called

vowel formants

.

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21:42

Her

vowel formants

the sounds of her vowels, through coaching and maturity. Those sounds are now coming from the back of her throat instead of the front of her mouth and through her nose. And we can tell different, I mean the joke we made is her vowels are all grown up, right. Would you say they've been to boarding school?

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Nora Princiotti

21:56

They've been to finishing school. They know which forks to you.

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Nathan Hubbard

21:59

Yeah. Yeah. And then the second part is her vocal tambour, which and that's just the character of those sound waves and frequencies that she's emitting their lower and they're more grounded now that comes with some of that breathness.

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22:12

And you can't escape that. I have a sneaking suspicion that they might have put a little bit of a filter through pro tools and the software that they use to record these things that they might have put a little bit of a filter on her voice. To thin it out and try to make it match the older voice.

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22:28

But I just think the difference between these two things in some moments is energy. Did you hear a whole lot of actual sort of instrumental or you know, melodic differences between the two versions of of the traditional sort of deluxe

Red

re-records.

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Nora Princiotti

22:46

So the primary difference that I felt existed was most clear on, let's use, we can use

22

and then maybe we can talk a little bit about

We Are Never Ever Getting Back Together

because songs like that were the ones where it did feel different to me and where honestly, I think I prefer the originals because it felt very because her vocal is sweeter and thicker, it blended into the mix to me a little bit more.

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23:19

The original

22

to me, it has that like nice chunky guitar going and sort of giving you a rhythmic bass line to it, It feels like a perfect night to dress up like hipster.

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23:37

And then she's just kind of yelling at in your face. Right, and the thinness, the thin quality to that vocal does make it stand out now, if you're just listening to the pure vocal, it might be a little less sort of juicy and sweet and hefty and nice.

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23:58

But I think for that song, it's a really nice effect because it just sounds like someone at their 22nd birthday party being like, I don't know about you, but I've got the karaoke mic and I'm just going for it now. The so that guitar is really, really faint

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Taylor Swift

24:20

It feels like a perfect night to dress up like hipster.

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Nora Princiotti

24:29

In the background and it's just part of this more layered.

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24:37

I think there's a little bit of both. I think- I do think that the mix feels it all feels a little bit more condensed and a little bit more just everything is in layers that are closely on top of each other and it had a little bit less of that urgency and that energy.

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24:57

But then you contrast it to something like the song I Almost Do, she can actually do the descending melody on a line. Like we made quite a mess babe, as three distinct notes

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Taylor Swift

25:13

We made quite a mess, babe.

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Nora Princiotti

25:17

Instead of just sort of sliding down

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Taylor Swift

25:20

We made quite a mess, babe.

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Nora Princiotti

25:25

Yes. And her voice now like that song to me just hit in this.

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25:33

They make some changes in the production where you know, I love that the guitar player has just a lot more to do at the end of that song. I think that's great.

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Taylor Swift

25:43

And I wish I could run to you. And I hope you know that.

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Nora Princiotti

25:50

The question as we get back to how this all feeds into the overall success of this project is okay, what's the relative value of a 22? That's on eight gazillion playlist.

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26:03

Eleventy million gazillion billion quadrillion playlists versus I Almost Do, which is, now you could say a song that hasn't had as big of a life, you could give it a little boost by doing this and maybe the task of replacing an iconic song like 22 is just going to be harder. The funny thing about it was that, the sort of shiniest of the new 22, it made it sound younger to me in a weird way, like 22 sounded a little 16 on this.

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Taylor Swift

26:42

I don't know about you, but I'm feeling 22. Everything will be alright if you keep me next to you.

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Nathan Hubbard

26:52

I mean, she's playing a character in some of these songs in ways like she's playing a character on Say Say- Stay Stay Stay. Say Say Say, that's a Paul McCartney, Michael Jackson song, good work. On Stay Stay Stay in the original. And you're right.

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27:06

And some of these, she has to play a character and I can only think that those are the things that are are sort of contributing this I mean, there's slight differences. I almost do like in the original she stumbles rhythmically out of the chorus at the 2/10 mark and she cleaned up that in the new version. And you know, there's slightly different drum intros into the chorus on.

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27:26

I Knew You Were Trouble

and you know, there's richer production on the drums in Come Back Be Here. But like, I don't know that any of those things matter. I mean Holy Ground was different. For sure.

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Taylor Swift

27:40

'Cause darling, it was good.

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Nathan Hubbard

27:47

It's like, whoa, there's the synthesizer, It sounds like

Flashdance

.

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28:00

It's like restoring dinosaur bones or something that we thought was like a land roving animal. And all of a sudden you're like holy shit this thing has wings. I mean, I really heard the difference in Holy Ground. But for the most part, the fidelity is pretty true.

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28:13

It is about the energy though. And that's where I want to bring you to

We Are Never Ever Getting Back Together

because that's the one that you. Yeah. What's up with the cocaine animals? Right? As you talk to me, what are we hearing me?

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Taylor Swift

28:26

We are never ever ever getting back together. We are never ever ever getting back together.

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Nora Princiotti

28:38

I really don't know. I don't know what happened on the we the we. The we does not work for me, I have to be honest. It just sounds insane. What is going?

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Nathan Hubbard

28:51

How did it happen?

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Nora Princiotti

28:53

Max Martin

is really good at his job.

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Nathan Hubbard

28:55

Yeah, I mean.

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28:58

Look, I did the analysis on the two, like with the sine waves and it's hard to tell the difference. But I think, let me give you, I mean, look, there's this pulsing wave of sound in that mix of the original, right? And I think a lot of this actually is about is about the mix and a little bit sonically what you identified.

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29:17

Which is that snare drum, right? The snare drum on the chorus and really through the song, it's a little bit more splashy on the two and the four beats on the new version. And on the old version, what you articulated about 22 is the same here. Like the snare is more integrated into the mix in the old version.

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29:36

And so the instruments end up carrying the rhythm and it feels more eighth note driven, which is the groove that you get on.

We Are Never Ever Getting Back Together

in the new one with that snare really standing out. It has that rhythmic focus on the two and the four? So it becomes about quarter notes just a little bit more.

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Nora Princiotti

29:52

It's very marching band.

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Nathan Hubbard

29:54

Yeah, and I think it changes the groove a little bit on that outro. I mean, there are subtle differences. Like, you know, the squeak at the end, the sort of vocal exhale at the end on the old. She had a squeak in that breath.

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Taylor Swift

30:06

We are never ever ever getting back together. We are never ever ever getting back together.

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Nathan Hubbard

30:18

Now she's been- she's learned so much and that instrument is evolved that it's just this exhale, right? But that doesn't change. I mean, there's an awkward silence on the gated acoustic guitar in that intro on the old. That's really cool. And it's not there on this new version. So, you can just sort of, it doesn't feel quite as process.

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30:37

And I think you're right. Something between the mix and the absence of Max and the way that there was those waves of sound. It's so subtle, you can't even see it visually when you lay out the sine waves, but it's there and you felt it. I felt it and the fan base is feeling it. They're okay. It doesn't make it bad.

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30:56

But I do wonder going forward if this song and a few of the other hits, including the MAC songs are going to be listened to more from the old catalog and interestingly, is it gonna be hard as we've talked about through the entire every single album podcast. Is it going to be hard to replicate the more complicated, software driven albums that are yet to come in 1989 reputation. And lover, right?

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Nora Princiotti

31:21

And this would serve as an example, not that that can't be done or she won't do it effectively, but just that it's hard because I do think there are exceptions, like Holy Ground, but for the most part, the primarily Christopher Rowe produced tracks, the fidelity there, I think is pretty close.

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31:44

Some of the ones where you bring in in shellback seemed to have more trouble and that's not a pointing fingers comment. I think it more speaks to just the nature of what those songs are.

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31:57

But there was a pretty clear distinction between those really heavily produced poppy, more filtered, more largely electronic tracks than some of the other ones. Speaking of some of the other ones, what hit for you in a way that it didn't before, because for me, there are a lot of things that fall into that category too.

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Nathan Hubbard

32:20

No, I think you're right. I, you know, originally said that

Begin Again

was one of my favorite sort of retroactive, looking back songs. I love the richness of her voice on that song. I love the State of grace. Acoustic. Speaking of changing voices.

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32:38

Hello

Gary Lightbody

and

Ed Sheeran

, they too have grown quite a bunch. And those songs for me stood out in a big way. I mean everything has changed is right. I mean it's the two of them standing in front of like anointment microphone. It's all just richness and confidence.

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32:54

It feels like there's a full orchestra versus just a cello on the original but it appears to just be

Butch Walker

on the keyboards. I don't know she sings it differently like you know, they're like at the 305 that sort of break down the old one. She would really use an H on the I just want to know you better.

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33:09

She'd be like, I just want to know you and on this new one she just gets it straight with the vowel again, vowel formants. Right? So it's just it's it's all the confidence of these two people who wrote this song on a trampoline before they were who they were. And I love the revisiting of that.

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Taylor Swift

33:26

All I know is we said "Hello". And your eyes look like coming home.

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33:32

All I know is a simple name. And everything has changed.

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Nora Princiotti

33:39

It's my most improved song for sure. Yeah. I believe. And I have, I want to be very clear. I've always liked this song on the powerhouse.

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33:50

That is

Red

, it was one of the tracks that I could have if I forced to cut I could have done without if we remember from our original recording of

Red

you said I think I think it's fantastic. I think they sound so good together. I think the guitar player is just having so much more fun.

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Taylor Swift

34:10

Come back and tell me why I'm feeling like I missed you.

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Nora Princiotti

34:17

All those little blue notes are just emphasized to such a greater degree. I love listening to them. I think the fact that you get a little bit more to listen to in the background, but it's still fairly sparse just lets me enjoy the way that her voice sounds with Ed Sheridan's voice, which has always been really, really good. That was always to me the argument for that song.

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34:42

It's just, I don't know if I want.

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Nathan Hubbard

34:45

Also the, yeah, it's also the entire basis of run but we'll get to run.

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Nora Princiotti

34:49

Yeah, we'll get to run later. But I thought it sounded fantastic I think.

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Nathan Hubbard

34:56

Did you have the same experience with last time?

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Nora Princiotti

34:59

Yes. Yes. Yes. Not necessarily to the same. I think my reaction was basically just like, it's pretty similar. I think that's one of the songs were the fidelity to the original is really really effective.

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35:13

The long outro. It's still totally hits. I will say one of the things that I was thinking about when I was listening to that song is just, what is it like for

Taylor

to call

Gary Lightbody

in the year of our Lord 2021? Hey

Gary

, It's

Taylor

.

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35:26

What's going on? What's up to? Oh, not much.

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Nathan Hubbard

35:29

Yeah, I'm just at

Whole Foods

. I'm in

Whole Foods

at 1:30 trying to figure out what I'm gonna do for dinner. Grey's anatomy isn't really happening anymore.

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Nora Princiotti

35:39

Taylor's

like when works for you and

Gary's

like, maybe you should say one works for you.

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Nathan Hubbard

35:44

Really just throw out of time and I'll see if I can match my calendar.

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Nora Princiotti

35:48

I think I can probably be a little flexible, Can work something out.

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Nathan Hubbard

35:51

I gotta eat a sandwich at 2:30. But yeah, but other than that, I think I'm good to go, yeah, I mean look at his voice, you can hear a little bit of the aging in it. But I really, he goes hard at the louder notes and the like coming out of that breakdown, You know. Like he goes pretty hard at that and, and he sounds good. You're right.

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Nora Princiotti

36:22

Oh, he's going for it. We love

Gary

. This is a Pro

Gary

Lightbody podcast.

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Nathan Hubbard

36:27

Anything else from the, from the re-records that stuck out to you?

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Nora Princiotti

36:31

Well, there are some moments and this happened with

Fearless

to that hit harder lyrically because we have more story. She's spilled a lot of tea. So for instance, in Begin again, the line, I think it's strange that you think I'm funny because he never did.

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Taylor Swift

36:51

I think it's strange that you think I'm funny'cause he never did.

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Nora Princiotti

36:57

Now we really know that

Jake

never thought she was much of a comedian.

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Nathan Hubbard

37:01

God, where is

Jake

?

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Nora Princiotti

37:03

Like what is with that? In a bunker somewhere.

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Nathan Hubbard

37:06

Kaya said he must be in a bunker. I mean, I think she's right. This is- we're going to get into this. I mean, man, we do not let that, we just don't let it go. And all the other songs, uh, the songs that didn't make the album that we just learned about that there really is a very rich tapestry of poo poo on

Jake

. That's happening on this album.

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Nora Princiotti

37:28

Well, I think we'll talk about this later. But one thing that we'd commented on in the original show that we did about original

Red

was how

Jake

kind of fares in the history of

Taylor

partners and how the fan base views him. To me that has changed.

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37:49

I think there's a signal. Everything has changed to borrow a phrase. Another one that I thought was funny was you can really on Starlight that to me is exhibit A on the vowels growing up and going to finishing school.

Share

38:08

The lack of twang on Duchess and Prince is now like Duchess and Prince.

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Taylor Swift

38:14

That night we snuck into a yacht club party pretending to be a duchess and a prince.

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Nora Princiotti

38:23

Whereas it was duchess and a prince.

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Taylor Swift

38:26

That night we snuck into a yacht club party pretending to be a duchess and a prince.

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Nathan Hubbard

38:36

They've been doing equestrian. Hours of riding horses.

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Nora Princiotti

38:40

A very accomplished dressage contestant.

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Nathan Hubbard

38:44

Well, if you're not going to talk about it, I am. What the hell happened with Girl at home? It's like

Taylor

just was like, who the fuck cares? Call

Elvira

. I love that. She suddenly told us.

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Nora Princiotti

38:57

Elvira

!

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Taylor Swift

38:58

Don't look at me, you got a girl at home and everybody knows that, everybody knows that, ah-ah

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39:09

Don't look at me, you got a girl at home. And everybody knows that.

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Nathan Hubbard

39:13

I mean she suddenly told us, yeah, I did not get that one quite right.

Elvira

, I can't change the words, but give me a

Casio keyboard

outro and let's turn this into some pop dance thing. But did it work?

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Nora Princiotti

39:29

Hyper pop girl at home. No, no, it didn't work.

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Nathan Hubbard

39:34

It's just a girl at home. Good now.

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Nora Princiotti

39:37

No, it's not. The problem with Girl At Home is the lyrics. The thing that does work about this though is that like,

Taylor

is completely in- on the joke, which I just love, she's like, yep, yep. You know what? I made a stinker, we're gonna throw

Elvira

onto here and just do it up. I love it, call a cab and lose my number.

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Nathan Hubbard

39:58

Well, I appreciate that she went for it and uh it made it very enjoyable because I almost skipped it because I was like, and I don't want to deal with this and then so funny. Yeah, it is hilarious. It's the best joke of the album.

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40:14

And again,

Jake

, She's fucking funny dude

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Nora Princiotti

40:17

She's hysterical.

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Nathan Hubbard

40:19

Anyway, but that was the clearly the most different and I just appreciate that she's not above taking a stinker and turning it into a comedy from a drama. So, it's good stuff.

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Nora Princiotti

40:35

Yes, I completely agree. And I do, to be clear, I think call a cab and lose my number is a great lyric. I think there are some not great lyrics on this song, but I think that's a great lyric.

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Nathan Hubbard

40:46

Well, if we look at the lyric Genius data, I mean, people are looking at the new stuff as you would expect like 20 - 1, the old stuff. They're checking out the liner notes there, checking out all those things there, of course, looking at all too. Well,

10 Minute Version

like Eleventy million to one.

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41:05

But we know by the way that as we've been on this pod,

Taylor

has broken the single day streaming record on

Spotify

for a female artist, breaking her own record of 90.5 million streams. Speaking of eleventy million in a day that she set with

Folklore

. So she's, this thing is crushing. People are listening. But it really looks like from the data that people are listening to the new stuff. So let's get into it.

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Nora Princiotti

41:30

Let's do it all right. We're gonna move to categories and we're mostly going to talk about the vault tracks here more than the existing songs. I do just want to say we're not going to categorize or rank

Ronan

by the way, that just feels like it's own sort of special thing.

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Nathan Hubbard

41:50

Ronan

and I don't really have much to say on this one other than it is achingly gorgeous. It is incredibly difficult to listen to. It is highly triggering for a lot of people. I heard it and I don't think I will listen to it again simply because it is a beautiful elegy, but I don't want to keep going back.

Share

42:06

I think it serves a purpose for people in mourning or who have gone through an intense period of mourning if they want to revisit and tap into those feelings, a beautiful song. But one that I probably won't revisit that much going forward because it's just so grippingly painful to hear.

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Nora Princiotti

42:23

Yeah, that's right to me. It took me until the morning after to listen to it the first time. Actually, I should have said this one. I said how I listened to it. I skipped it because I just didn't feel like I was in the right place for it. It's stunning. I've heard it now, tough song to listen to.

Share

42:39

Really lovely song nonetheless. And you know, lovely to see his mom post about it this week. But I think we're just going to keep that separate from some of this discussion, which is going to allow us to really dive into the new songs and all songs are eligible for the categories.

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42:56

But I think we are going to really focus on the new songs because as you said, I've definitely listened to them more than the old stuff. I've been. Those are the ones that have been on, on repeat for me. So, this category will only deal with the vault tracks. Best new song, Nathan. What you got man?

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Nathan Hubbard

43:17

Am I allowed to use his Better Man? A new song?

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Nora Princiotti

43:22

Okay, that's a great question. I knew that was where you were going to go. Let's talk about Better Man. Sure. You know what? This is your podcast.

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Nathan Hubbard

43:30

All right. Because I'm really, yeah, it's your podcast. I'm between Better Man and Nothing New for this one. So, I mean, look, welcome to Better Man Island everyone. You mean the 2017 CMA song of the Year Winner is actually good hooray. I mean look, I love this.

Share

43:50

It actually took me a little while though to get hugely excited about it because she altered the cadence or the melody on Almost every big vocal moment from the Little Big Town version. You know the cadence of the way she says, Better Man is different. Right?

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Nora Princiotti

44:07

And she altered a lot of the melody from the live at the Bluebird version that we heard as well. That was much more true to the little Big Town version. She had her first, but this is a different, this is different song.

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Nathan Hubbard

44:18

Yeah, I mean look, thank you for the country backing vocals on. It was always on your terms on that line. I mean her backup singers, Kaitlin Levinson and Liz Hewitt. There's a road singers and they really shine on this track all the way through from that line. It was always on your terms to the stuff on the outro. I thought that was great. I have to say, I really miss the second. You can't say that coming out of the bridge.

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Taylor Swift

44:43

And I gave to you my best and we both know you can't say that.

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Nathan Hubbard

44:54

"Right where you know, you can't say that. "And then on the little big town, she goes, "You can't say that, "and that's missing here. I miss it.

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Taylor Swift

45:03

And I gave you my best and we both know you can't say that, you can't say that.

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Nathan Hubbard

45:16

But, it's clear to me why she didn't include this on

Red

now. For whatever reason, the tracing of this song in her mind is as a country ballad. It's just really hard to get out of that and reinvented it. It usually takes the song being bad, like girl at home to do that.

Share

45:30

Like I wrote a song for my brother and I realized like it was like a rocker and it took me like it sucked and then we slowed it down and turn into a ballot. It was like, oh, okay, this actually works now for her. This is just always going to be a country ballad and that's maybe why she didn't put it on. But to me this, this is like the song End of the Innocence, which

Bruce Hornsby

wrote which Jon Henley rerecorded.

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46:03

Yeah, this is the end of the innocence.

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Nathan Hubbard

46:10

I'm glad we have them both. They're both eminently listenable. They remind me of each other, but they are very distinct listening experiences that augment each other instead of being in competition. And so once I got to that point, I really was deeply in love with this version. I'm so glad we have them both.

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Nora Princiotti

46:31

I agree. I agree. I would say I don't understand why it was not the album because I hear all of that. But I just think that it's a fantastic song. It's funny. It was so successful as a little big town song.

Share

46:43

But it's hard to come up with the alternate reality cases of what would have happened if

Taylor

had just dropped this when she dropped it because it's, you can't pull out. Well, it would have been a number one for sure. Well it already was, right? It would have been an award winning song. It already was.

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Nathan Hubbard

47:01

Right? And the treatment of this versus what she did for Babe is noticeable, right? Babe feels like more of a carbon copy of, of that version of, of the Sugarland song, doesn't it?

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Nora Princiotti

47:13

Yes, but with, it's funny, it feels... it feels copied to a degree. But some of the little subtle flourishes. Its identity is as a, as as a rooted in country song, but a lot of little flourishes on that that I think are so nice are poppy. Like the little promises promises.

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Taylor Swift

47:40

What a shame.

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Nathan Hubbard

47:43

Well, but look, she wrote this with

Pat Monahan

, she wrote this with the guy from Train. It has major Train vibe. I opened for Train once as they were breaking and they were like the protege of

Hootie and the Blowfish

and I was talking to

Hooties

manager, seriously, I was talking to

Hooties

manager backstage and he's like, Train is

Hootie

but happier.

Share

48:04

I was like, how is that fucken possible? But it's true. They write like the happiest sad songs and this is no exception, right there's a little teeny bit of

Rihanna's Umbrella

in the end, like Stay, Stay- like the eh-eh-eh, right?

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Nora Princiotti

48:20

Which

Taylor

has covered.

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Nathan Hubbard

48:22

Yeah, I mean, I just wonder if the, you know,

Taylor

sang on the original Sugarland version, backing up

Jennifer Nettles

and I just wonder if her participation in that has her sort of more true to the original melody should definitely make some a lot of choices that are different here. But um I did, I expected to hate this and I loved it.

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Nora Princiotti

48:51

I loved it. I totally loved it.

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48:54

I thought it was fantastic.

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48:55

It sounds a lot like All You Had To Do Was Stay, let's be honest.

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Nathan Hubbard

48:58

I mean this is a little bit of a rewrite of that, you know, with that, with the happy sad train layer on top of it, but that one stuck out for me, it's just interesting that this was a, you know, a cover of somebody else's cover of her and this one just felt a little truer to the original than Better Man, but I understand why she had to separate Better Man from the Little big Town version because it was such a big hit.

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Nora Princiotti

49:23

I just think part of what works about Better Man is I think Better Man is a better song for one person to sing.

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49:32

There's something about the directness of I just wish you were a better man that coming from one voice and particularly as a motive of a vocalist as

Taylor

, you can tweak the melody all you want that's always gonna hit, It's just always going to hit and it really, I would venture to guess Better Man.

Taylor's Version

is the song I will listen to most from this.

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Nathan Hubbard

49:59

Well, so it's going to be in competition with me with another song that was meant to be sung with two people and that's nothing new. The duet with

Phoebe Bridgers

. Yeah, and this is, look, I mean, let's talk about this, I want to understand how it hit you. I'm a little bit of a farb to be sure, but this is important in all kinds of ways.

Share

50:20

I mean

Taylor's

an indie rock junkie, there's no doubt

Phoebe

is the it girl of the moment. Very poignant and intentional choice from her to pick

Phoebe

from

Taylor

to pick

Phoebe

who's been, you know, the subject of this is is really like once you've had your hit, like it's the

Carole King

, Will you still love me tomorrow?

Share

50:39

She's been, you know, the target of

David Crosby

for her guitar smashing and shit. But let's be clear, it is monumental

Taylor

gave

Phoebe

a verse. This is the first time she's ever done that with a woman on her song. The suspense that builds up as great as soon as she isn't singing back up on the first course, you're like, what is she gonna get a verse? Is she going to boom?

Share

50:59

She got a verse.

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51:01

How long will it be cute? All this crying in my room.

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Nora Princiotti

51:10

It's really wonderful.

Share

51:11

I love this song. I think you have to the first time I listened to it, I didn't get it immediately because there was a lot going on.

Share

51:23

If you do not let the bridge of this song hit you and experience it like a piece of a song but also just absorb the storytelling of it, absorb the you know,

Taylor

writing about meeting a 17 year old budding pop star who says, oh you paved the way for me and then she cries, if you don't get the juiciness of that. This song doesn't hit.

Share

52:03

It is, it detonates. And so for me, I think I was probably like reading tweets a little bit the first time that I heard it and I was like, oh that sounds great, yhey sound great together.

Phoebe

got a verse. Yeah

Phoebe!

And then the second time I just went holy guacamole.

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Nathan Hubbard

52:20

Yes, you nailed the context of it. I mean the song on the surface sounds a decent bit like Souvenir by Boy Genius which is the band of

Phoebe

and Julia and Lucy Dacus so that it's a very it's not exactly a tribute, but you're going to recognize the guitar strumming pattern if you go listen that the Forbes love this song but you hit the importance of this.

Share

52:38

Like

Phoebe's

accustomed to all these kinds of collaborations. She's like the DJ Khaled of of indie rock. She's done duets with Canola Burst and

Jackson Browne

in the 1975. But I can't help but look at this through the same lens as the

Olivia Rodrigo

relationship.

Taylor

. has, hold on, hold on. I need to process Phoebe's Bridges.

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Nora Princiotti

52:58

Is this the DJ Khaled in Indie Rock version?

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Nathan Hubbard

53:01

She is! She shows up everywhere, like. She was like a rapper who just- she's like a rapper who shows up in everybody else's verse. But look I mean she

Taylor

has this musical family tree, right?

Share

53:15

And she is decidedly one generation removed from the best new artist category at the Grammys at this point she took

Olivia Rodrigo

under her wing, which was kind of funny because she suddenly ended up with writing credits on her album after that.

Share

53:28

But it kind of seemed like she was like, girl, let me teach you about how this business works and it's gonna work going forward. Nobody fu*ks with my songs and I get paid on all of it.

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Nora Princiotti

53:36

But part of how this business works is that I stay winning by the way.

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Nathan Hubbard

53:40

Yeah, yeah, but so the reach out to

Phoebe

sort of feels the same way on the indie rock side. I mean look, it's like it's a much less dramatic version of

Madonna

at the 2000 and three VMS where she did the performance with

Britney

and

Christina

or like the where she brought

Redfoo

and LMFAO to do party rocking and sexy and I know it with her at the Super Bowl.

Share

54:03

I think she has some regrets about that by the way.

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54:05

Every day, I see my dreams. Every day I see my- every day I see my dreams.

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Nathan Hubbard

54:11

Redfoo

is not doing great. He's like living the vegan lifestyle, playing tennis and that's it. Except I think he had a major injury so he can't play tennis anymore. Anyway, the point is like this feels like it's about establishing an enduring legacy and a connection to what's next.

Share

54:29

She's smartly planning these

Taylor Swift

seeds with the next generation, both in pop and indie rock and that's the context and depth of this song in addition to it being a really great a song on the surface.

Phoebe

also by the way, and she tweeted this, she was 18 when

Red

came out, How old was she when

RedFoo

came out?

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Nora Princiotti

54:51

But there's already been a lot more

Redfoo

conversation on this episode than I ever anticipated.

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Nathan Hubbard

54:58

Phoebe

is not a one hit wonder.

Phoebe

is not a one hit wonder. So she yeah, she

Phoebe

was stunned by this, but it's a big moment because again, she's listening to the fan base in the same way that she did Girl at Home, she heard everybody being like why didn't

Taylor

give a woman a verse, ever?

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Nora Princiotti

55:16

Here it is. But you know what, I think this and we've talked about that and I always had a strong feeling that some of the backup vocal spots that she did give other women, those were not throwaways, those are important pieces and she would do this when it was right, I think this kind of proves that this is right, this is the right moment, the right person, the right song.

Share

55:38

I totally buy that

Taylor

has taken

Olivia Rodrigo

, under her wing in a substantial way and cares about that relationship.

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55:48